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Immigration Reform

I like how ELC says "lasting subcultures of poverty" and then in the next sentence refers to racist bigots as if he isn't one.

The inability to speak English has a direct effect on one's ability to pull themselves (by the fucking bootstraps, if need be) out of poverty. If you can't see that and have to instead resort to calling somebody you don't know a racist bigot, then you are a moron to the umpteenth degree.
 
Miller isn't even very good at what he does. The argument yesterday when he tried to twist the reporter's words about only accepting people from Great Britain and Australia was a prime example. To anyone who is not an idiot- so like half of people- he's extremely transparent. My non-provable opinion is he is below average when it comes to having an effect on listeners who do not already agree with him.
 
Here's my question: why doesn't the right embrace undocumented immigrants? They come to this country with no support system, or at least a fraction of what citizens have. No food stamps, medicaid, social security, unemployment, etc. Their kids get to go to school, but at least where I live schools are supported by property taxes. And they are living somewhere, so they are paying for that. And here's the most important part: somehow, they make it.

So, for a party trying to argue that scaling back the social safety net is achievable, and will not cause mass death and chaos, why don't they embrace the very people living in that reality?

Oh yeah, they're brown.
 
The inability to speak English has a direct effect on one's ability to pull themselves (by the fucking bootstraps, if need be) out of poverty. If you can't see that and have to instead resort to calling somebody you don't know a racist bigot, then you are a moron to the umpteenth degree.

Show me the data that people who come here knowing English do better than those who don't know English when they get here.

There should be plenty of data out there if you are willing to claim that anybody that "can't see that...is a moron to the umpteenth degree."
 
The inability to speak English has a direct effect on one's ability to pull themselves (by the fucking bootstraps, if need be) out of poverty. If you can't see that and have to instead resort to calling somebody you don't know a racist bigot, then you are a moron to the umpteenth degree.

You are doing a bang-up job convincing strangers on the internet you aren't a racist bigot by saying things like "lasting subcultures of poverty" and praising the articulateness of someone peddling white nationalist talking points.
 
Don't know the context of his quote, but I think it relates to the courts slapping down the EO on immigration. The quote seems an extension of the idea that the admin will ultimately win in court.

I ask if you are the same person holding all the same thoughts and same manner of doing things now as you were in high school? Or even in college? I know I'm not. Sometimes it's because times change, sometimes because philosophies change, and sometimes because people change. Shit I'm not even the same guy I was 10 years ago.

I'm not enamored by him. I was simply glad to see him slap down that fool Acosta. I'm glad to see that the administration seems to have found its first coherent, non-tweeting spokesman to take up the issue of immigration, both legal and illegal, because it's the one thing they have the right idea about. It's not about diversity or poor, huddled masses or wretched refuse. It's about limiting it and getting it under control and at the very least calling into question how it has affected wages in this country over the long haul. It's about how it affects social welfare programs, how it creates lasting subcultures of poverty and-- yes-- non-English speakers. These are real issues and they can't be glossed over either by a bunch of kumbayah dipshits on the left or racist bigots on the right. At some point, the Democrats decided to make their bed with the element that concluded unfettered immigration was an overall benefit and any attempts to limit it should be painted in the worst light imaginable. There are strange bedfellows in that camp-- the usual immigration rights advocates, big business interests who started influencing the party under WJC, and party partisans who really don't care but see the issue as a way to change the demographics and create a permanent voting majority. The GOP has one foot in with big business and the other in with the Trumpians. Frankly, it had both feet in with the big business element prior to Trump. That means there is a lot to overcome to do any kind of restrictive immigration reform.

To say my views on immigrants boil down to "discontent" with them is a dishonest representation. I've done more for immigrants than you or this entire board combined is likely to do in its lifetime. I've witnessed firsthand the increasing disregard for immigration law over multiple administrations. I've seen how they've twisted waiver policies to make them easier to get, how they've pushed for binding precedent decisions to fulfill the wishes of whatever shithead lobbyists they want to please, how they've placed AILA lawyers in positions of power, how existing law was interpreted intentionally for something it was never meant to address, how sometimes law was just made up out of whole cloth, and I could go on and on. Immigration is a long-term national security issue and should be treated like one. Not necessarily because of A-Q or ISIS (though that is obviously some concern), but because of the way it can pull us apart from inside. Politicians don't give a fuck about any of that because they're too lazy or too dismissive of their constituents (with some justification) to even attempt to delve into it. As with every issue, it's much easier to stick to talking points and point to some dumb study that supports your POV.

But he hasn't changed, he is like he was in high school and college. Those raw nuggets of his ideology only crystallized in his adulthood. I presume that's why the author went with the high school and college peer testimony - because it underscored the clear thread of this guy's ideological journey that delivered him to the big table. You would have a point if he had changed, but he only doubled-down.

I'm totally fine with calling into question how immigration has affected wages, effects social welfare programs, and poverty. Does this bill and this dickhead's rhetoric achieve that? I don't recall "unfettered immigration" being on the docket, either. Is it unfettered? It's pulling us apart from the inside? We are talking about legal immigration...
 
TRUMP: Immigrants are taking our jobs!!!!!
What will we do?????
I KNOW!
I'll change immigration policy to only let in the most qualified, highly skilled immigrants!
 
Show me the data that people who come here knowing English do better than those who don't know English when they get here.

There should be plenty of data out there if you are willing to claim that anybody that "can't see that...is a moron to the umpteenth degree."

Go to the nearest metropolitan area near you and go drive (or walk, if you're so inclined) through the area where they are speaking predominantly Spanish. Get back to me after that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-census-calculation-finds-higher-rate-of-poverty-in-us/
https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/overvie...erty-english-not-primary-language-spoken-home
 
But he hasn't changed, he is like he was in high school and college. Those raw nuggets of his ideology only crystallized in his adulthood. I presume that's why the author went with the high school and college peer testimony - because it underscored the clear thread of this guy's ideological journey that delivered him to the big table. You would have a point if he had changed, but he only doubled-down.

I'm totally fine with calling into question how immigration has affected wages, effects social welfare programs, and poverty. Does this bill and this dickhead's rhetoric achieve that? I don't recall "unfettered immigration" being on the docket, either. Is it unfettered? It's pulling us apart from the inside? We are talking about legal immigration...

The dickhead's rhetoric is the perfect counter to the dickhead Acosta, who makes later years Helen Thomas look like a brilliant non-partisan.

I am talking about both legal and illegal immigration. The approach to legal immigration in this case has a largely symbolic language measure. Since it is dealing with legal immigrants and a group of people much more likely to assimilate into American culture once here, I can only consider it largely symbolic. It just gives some teeth to the consulate for those cases where the guy is coming here to work as a sushi chef or a janitor or a clerk at a kwik-e-mart and he can't speak English. But the problem with the language barrier and assimilation is largely from the undocumented populations, and the continual desire to legalize them every 15 years does nothing but further divide.

As you can see from a few of the posts above yours, there are plenty of people who think attempting to draw any link between poverty or depressed wages and immigration is just another white nationalist talking point. Apparently the whole Statue of Liberty thing was a white nationalist talking point. Who knew? I have thought the Statue of Liberty argument was stupid for a long time now, but having been on any white nationalist mailing lists or at any of their speaking engagements.
 
Show me the data that people who come here knowing English do better than those who don't know English when they get here.

There should be plenty of data out there if you are willing to claim that anybody that "can't see that...is a moron to the umpteenth degree."

Do you really need data for common sense?
 
Shouldn't there be two groups here, completely separate. Legal immigration and illegal immigration. Driving around and seeing people in a neighborhood speaking only Spanish is probably more on the illegal side than legal. This policy is for the world of legal immigration.
 
I started the thread as "legal immigration reform" and later changed to simply "immigration reform" as these are related, distinct, and both important.

I don't pretend to know what is "right" in terms of numbers or even qualifications for legal immigration. But I don't think legal immigrants are really causing much of our problems. And the recent Trump admin proposal just feels xenophobic. Like a ginned up "problem" that someone can claim to be "fixing".

I think we have a larger problem with illegal immigration. And think we could address it by crating a well-regulated guest worker program and a path towards legality that's not too easy but not impossible. And do a better job of curtailing illegal entry.
 
The dickhead's rhetoric is the perfect counter to the dickhead Acosta, who makes later years Helen Thomas look like a brilliant non-partisan.

I am talking about both legal and illegal immigration. The approach to legal immigration in this case has a largely symbolic language measure. Since it is dealing with legal immigrants and a group of people much more likely to assimilate into American culture once here, I can only consider it largely symbolic. It just gives some teeth to the consulate for those cases where the guy is coming here to work as a sushi chef or a janitor or a clerk at a kwik-e-mart and he can't speak English. But the problem with the language barrier and assimilation is largely from the undocumented populations, and the continual desire to legalize them every 15 years does nothing but further divide.

As you can see from a few of the posts above yours, there are plenty of people who think attempting to draw any link between poverty or depressed wages and immigration is just another white nationalist talking point. Apparently the whole Statue of Liberty thing was a white nationalist talking point. Who knew? I have thought the Statue of Liberty argument was stupid for a long time now, but having been on any white nationalist mailing lists or at any of their speaking engagements.

I'm talking about legal immigration - the topic of the thread, the bill, and the dickhead's little pirouette there with Acosta.

What is the symbolism that you are so impressed with? That you have to speak English before you enter? I think you are arguing that there is symbolic value in preventing immigration for low-skill workers who don't speak English because they will only end up in poverty, but high-skill workers who likely know English already will not. So you advocate the gov pick the winners and losers based on acquired language skills?
 
Oddly enough, I've had to go to BBC to find anything that attempts to explain what is in the RAISE Act.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40814625

There are some sensible things in there, particularly the sliding scale based on age.

When dealing with professionals, the overwhelming majority of them speak English already. This is not going to create much of a dent in employment-based professionals, and I'm guessing that it won't effect things like refugees. And again, not sure but I think it probably also wouldn't apply to immediate family, like when somebody tries to bring his wife in. This is going to have an impact in cases where a guy shows up for his work visa interview at a consulate and can't speak any English. How do you propose to work in the US if you can't speak any English?

Yeah, this isn't happening right now. Do you know how hard it is to get a green card through an employer these days? The people who get them all pretty much speak English already, otherwise the companies wouldn't sponsor them.
 
TRUMP: Immigrants are taking our jobs!!!!!
What will we do?????
I KNOW!
I'll change immigration policy to only let in the most qualified, highly skilled immigrants!

So much truth to this.
 
The dickhead's rhetoric is the perfect counter to the dickhead Acosta, who makes later years Helen Thomas look like a brilliant non-partisan.

I am talking about both legal and illegal immigration. The approach to legal immigration in this case has a largely symbolic language measure. Since it is dealing with legal immigrants and a group of people much more likely to assimilate into American culture once here, I can only consider it largely symbolic. It just gives some teeth to the consulate for those cases where the guy is coming here to work as a sushi chef or a janitor or a clerk at a kwik-e-mart and he can't speak English. But the problem with the language barrier and assimilation is largely from the undocumented populations, and the continual desire to legalize them every 15 years does nothing but further divide.

As you can see from a few of the posts above yours, there are plenty of people who think attempting to draw any link between poverty or depressed wages and immigration is just another white nationalist talking point. Apparently the whole Statue of Liberty thing was a white nationalist talking point. Who knew? I have thought the Statue of Liberty argument was stupid for a long time now, but having been on any white nationalist mailing lists or at any of their speaking engagements.

Yeah, you can't get an employment-based green card for any of these. Since you clearly have no idea what the current law actually is, here's a primer of the three major categories of employment-based green cards so that maybe we can have a fact-based discussion.

EB1: employee with extraordinary ability in the science, arts, education, business or athletics, professors, researchers and Ph.D. holders etc. falls under this category.
It also includes people working in US as managers and executives on international transfer basis (Company transfer L1 holder)

(ii) EB2: This includes employee with extra ability in the field of science, arts or business, and advanced degree professionals (PG. degree holder).

(iii) EB3: This includes professionals with Bachelor/ Graduate degree, and other skilled workers.
 
Turns out Miller's great grandmother didn't speak English when she immigrated here. Nor did Trump's grandfather. Who could have seen that coming?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ouldnt-have-gotten-in/?utm_term=.78c536416ce5

I'm just going to say it: the English thing is fucking dumb. My father and grandparents came to this country as refugees who didn't speak a lick of English. They worked their asses off to learn English when they got here and went on to have great careers (my grandmother as a full professor at a major university, my grandfather as a geologist, my dad as a doctor).

Knowing English at the time you arrive is a horrible proxy for how successful a person will be in the United States. And it limits immigration to essentially the elites of foreign countries. Which I guess is the entire point. Which is fucking disgraceful.

Maybe (work with me here) English is something someone can learn.

My wife didn't speak English when she came to the U.S. Her parents spoke English pretty poorly at the time they came. At home their family never spoke English. Still don't. She was a green card holder when we married. Only became a citizen after we had our first child. Whole family has been plenty successful and good citizens over time. Kinda glad the rules allowed them to come then.

My wife was born in and grew up in a heavily Cuban suburb of Miami. She didn't speak English until she was in kindergarten.

The inability to speak English has a direct effect on one's ability to pull themselves (by the fucking bootstraps, if need be) out of poverty. If you can't see that and have to instead resort to calling somebody you don't know a racist bigot, then you are a moron to the umpteenth degree.

Seems like anybody with the bootstraps can just learn English. Americans are so fucking stupid about this. For the rest of the world, learning English isn't a big deal. Americans act like you have to be born with it.

Go to the nearest metropolitan area near you and go drive (or walk, if you're so inclined) through the area where they are speaking predominantly Spanish. Get back to me after that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-census-calculation-finds-higher-rate-of-poverty-in-us/
https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/overvie...erty-english-not-primary-language-spoken-home

A lot of them are bilingual.
 
FACT CHECK: Have Immigrants Lowered Wages For Blue-Collar American Workers?

Quote:
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The short answer:

Economists disagree whether or how much an influx of immigrants depresses wages. Some have found that new immigrants depress wages for certain groups, such as teenagers or workers with a high school diploma or less. Others say the overall effect on the economy is tiny, and an influx of immigrant workers vitalizes the economy overall.

Either way, the forces driving wage reductions for blue-collar workers go far beyond immigration.
----------
 
Yea, it's all about image (easier) over substance (more difficult). Never more true of anyone than Trump.

"Look--I'm solving problems."
 
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