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OFFICIAL Tear The Fascists Down Thread

ELC logic: If Hitler had just made the Jews slaves as the centerpiece of a system of keeping them inferior, it would have been much better.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
The entire Nazi analogy is incorrect. You're trying to say slavery is abhorrent and Nazis are abhorrent and therefore the two things are the same. Fucking a fat girl is pretty abhorrent too, but that doesn't make a chubby chaser Hitler or Hitler a chubby chaser, though he may well have been for all I know. This ignores all the things that Nazis did that really put them in a class of their own and the fact that they did it some 80 years after the US Civil War. There is a reason guys like Hitler and Pol Pot and Stalin occupy their own rung on the ladder of evil.

It also ignores that the evils of slavery cannot be blamed on the south or the confederacy. Where I take issue with that otherwise eloquent speech from the New Orleans mayor is how he terms it 4 years out of 300. That is far too simplistic a viewpoint. Slavery was a practice for 250 years in America (America as we think of it...not talking about Columbus here). It wasn't a 4 year fight. It culminated in a 4 year fight after years of political fighting. But its evils cannot be pinned on the confederacy. Its evils can be traced back throughout ancient times, and for our purposes to the colonists. It was such a part of life that we articulated ways in which slaves were to be counted in the Constitution (oddly enough, the northern states did not want them counted at all, as it gave them a political disadvantage), and even remarked about the slave trade in the same document. It's a lamentable part of our history that several of the founders thought would eventually have to be dealt with. They kicked the can down the road just as our current politicians do because it was a hot potato issue. Blame the people who lived in 1860-65 if you want, but those who brought it here are just as much to blame, as are the founders, as is the generation the died out prior to the Civil War. And if there is collective guilt as a nation on the issue of slavery, then statues of any Presidents prior to Lincoln must surely be as offensive. As offensive as statues of Hitler, apparently.
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the analogy re: statues and veneration is about losing sides of wars, not ideologies
 
EatLeadCommie said:
The entire Nazi analogy is incorrect. You're trying to say slavery is abhorrent and Nazis are abhorrent and therefore the two things are the same. Fucking a fat girl is pretty abhorrent too, but that doesn't make a chubby chaser Hitler or Hitler a chubby chaser, though he may well have been for all I know. This ignores all the things that Nazis did that really put them in a class of their own and the fact that they did it some 80 years after the US Civil War. There is a reason guys like Hitler and Pol Pot and Stalin occupy their own rung on the ladder of evil.

It also ignores that the evils of slavery cannot be blamed on the south or the confederacy. Where I take issue with that otherwise eloquent speech from the New Orleans mayor is how he terms it 4 years out of 300. That is far too simplistic a viewpoint. Slavery was a practice for 250 years in America (America as we think of it...not talking about Columbus here). It wasn't a 4 year fight. It culminated in a 4 year fight after years of political fighting. But its evils cannot be pinned on the confederacy. Its evils can be traced back throughout ancient times, and for our purposes to the colonists. It was such a part of life that we articulated ways in which slaves were to be counted in the Constitution (oddly enough, the northern states did not want them counted at all, as it gave them a political disadvantage), and even remarked about the slave trade in the same document. It's a lamentable part of our history that several of the founders thought would eventually have to be dealt with. They kicked the can down the road just as our current politicians do because it was a hot potato issue. Blame the people who lived in 1860-65 if you want, but those who brought it here are just as much to blame, as are the founders, as is the generation the died out prior to the Civil War. And if there is collective guilt as a nation on the issue of slavery, then statues of any Presidents prior to Lincoln must surely be as offensive. As offensive as statues of Hitler, apparently.
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1) This where the whitewashing of how slaves were treated is dangerous. The American Slave trade is much closer to atrocities that occurred under the Nazis than having a less than desirable sexual partner. Honestly, this statement is pretty despicable.

2) Your second paragraph i agree with - by making the Confederacy the bad guys, it can act to absolve the rest of us of any guilt (especially non-Southerners). We cannot do that. I am ok with the mayor pointing out the war years specifically because the subject at hand was a civil war monument - I believe he did make mention of the past outside fo that as well, but was focused on the purpose of the statues and the Cult of the Lost Cause. I am uncertain how to treat the founding fathers. The outright veneration of Washington, Jefferson, etc. is difficult to take as they were people who condoned and participated in owning another human being. I think we should always speak about those things when we speak about the founders. I do think that Monticello has done a great job including the barbarity and viciousness of Jefferson the slave owner in their treatment of history - that should be done more.
 
We should all be guilty toward how long America remained pro-slavery. That isn't in question. It was all of America, not just the South. But only one side fought to protect slavery and the subjugation of an entire race.
 
Looks like the snowflakes will be tearing down the Joe Mack Wilson building at Kennesaw State.

"Representative Joe Mack Wilson is a racist. Wilson uses the term “ni**er” to refer to black persons. (Wall Deposition, Vol. II, 57.) He stated to one Republican member of the Reapportionment Committee that “there are some things worse than ni**ers and that's Republicans.” (Wilson Trial Testimony, 436.) Wilson opposes legislation of benefit to blacks, which he refers to as “ni**er legislation.” (Wall Deposition, Vol. II, 59; Coverdell Trial Testimony, 598; Wall Deposition, Vol. I, 30; Randall Deposition, 65-66; Wilson Deposition, 122, 148; Phillips Deposition, 36; Holmes Deposition, 52-55.) His views on blacks are well known to members of the General Assembly. From the House reapportionment committee to the Conference committee, Wilson played the instrumental role in 1981 Congressional reapportionment and he was guided by the same racial attitudes throughout the reapportionment process that guided his other legislative work."

Busbee v. Smith, 549 F. Supp. 494, 500 (D.D.C. 1982).

Get on it flakes.
 
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It's damn ignorant for people like ELC to comflate confederate military service with support of the confederate cause. From the start of the war until 1862, non-slaveholding, non-voting (poor) southern men were often coerced to "volunteer" under threat of dishonor, torture and imprisonment. There were only about 6 thousand slaves who fought for the CSA, while nearly 100k were forced to be laborers. After 1862 the percentage of conscripted Confederate soldiers was double the percentage of Union soldiers.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
1) This where the whitewashing of how slaves were treated is dangerous. The American Slave trade is much closer to atrocities that occurred under the Nazis than having a less than desirable sexual partner. Honestly, this statement is pretty despicable.

2) Your second paragraph i agree with - by making the Confederacy the bad guys, it can act to absolve the rest of us of any guilt (especially non-Southerners). We cannot do that. I am ok with the mayor pointing out the war years specifically because the subject at hand was a civil war monument - I believe he did make mention of the past outside fo that as well, but was focused on the purpose of the statues and the Cult of the Lost Cause. I am uncertain how to treat the founding fathers. The outright veneration of Washington, Jefferson, etc. is difficult to take as they were people who condoned and participated in owning another human being. I think we should always speak about those things when we speak about the founders. I do think that Monticello has done a great job including the barbarity and viciousness of Jefferson the slave owner in their treatment of history - that should be done more.
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Glad we found some agreement in the second part, but I don't think I'm whitewashing anything. But there is a notable difference between the mores that existed in 1860 and those that existed in 1940. That is relevant. We don't go back and discuss the atrocities of the Romans enslaving everybody because we look at how they functioned within the context of their time and marvel at their achievements. It's the same reason why we tend to gloss over the fact that the founders owned slaves. Examining slavery within its context is important. The abolitionist movement didn't even have legs until well into the 1800s. The Civil War occurred because of slavery, but more importantly because of the Constitutional crisis brought on by the Constitutional guarantee of slavery. Who am I to judge within the context of 2017 the actions that several men took to bring it to the colonies, to codify it within the Constitution, and to perpetuate it as they were lawfully permitted to do? It's a big stain in American history, but also an important one that we should not try to simplify with loaded words like "treason" and "traitor". All that shit was dealt with in 1865 as it should've been. Digging it up now will not amount to a hill of beans and will serve only to inflame the passions of the idiot fringes. If that's a fight that the KKK types and Antifa want to have, then I hope they can all go out to a field somewhere and kill each other, away from the rest of the civilized world. Maybe they can recreate the cornfield in Antietam. As for me, I want no part in that.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
It's damn ignorant for people like ELC to comflate confederate military service with support of the confederate cause. From the start of the war until 1862, non-slaveholding, non-voting (poor) southern men were often coerced to "volunteer" under threat of dishonor, torture and imprisonment. There were only about 6 thousand slaves who fought for the CSA, while nearly 100k were forced to be laborers. After 1862 the percentage of conscripted Confederate soldiers was double the percentage of Union soldiers.
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I'm so confused right now. Are you thinking of somebody else? I did specifically say this:

The politicians fought for one thing, the rank and file largely for another or simply because they had no other choice other than conscription or heading west to the wilderness to avoid service. Go back and look at census records from 1840, 1850, and 1860. Most people didn't own slaves.
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EatLeadCommie said:
I'm so confused right now. Are you thinking of somebody else? I did specifically say this:
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No one gives a shit who signed up for what. The war was fought for a purpose. A ton of people died fighting for a shit cause - slavery

"Even to portray it as slave states vs non slave states is not accurate. What side you came down upon depended largely upon geography and the states caught in between made choices in their own self-interest, not any moral principle."

The border slave holding states had multiple reasons to resist secession, WV seceded for 2 years, and Lincoln had to use force in Maryland to prevent their secession. There was no glory in their abstinence.

To memorialize the confederacy 50-75-100 years after was wrong. It was intimidation in 1885 and 1965, and it's antagonism now.
 
How many conservatives are going to go see Dunkirk again to root for the Nazis? #lostcause
 
Apologies if this is in one of the other threads, but NC gov Cooper took a bold stance:

 
EatLeadCommie said:
How do they impact lives? They don't. They're fucking statues. Statues to honor those who last fought and died 152 years ago, or survived, came home, and died as decrepit old men 80 years ago. This is about "feelings." Somebody "feels" angry when they see that. Why do they "feel" angry? Because somebody told them they should feel marginalized and they see all their friends whining on social media and have a heightened sense of self-importance. Fuck their feelings, and frankly, fuck the feelings of anybody who feels so outraged that they have to either march in support of a statue or in opposition to it. Get over yourselves. Have an appreciation for history and how it impacted this country for better and for worse. THINK when you see those monuments, don't FEEL. Think of where we were as a nation before then and since. Think about how the same people who fought for the south had parents who fought in the Revolutionary War, The War Of 1812, The Mexican War (lots of Civil War vets in this one, actually), and sons who have fought in the numerous conflicts since. Think of how their lives were impacted, all their lives. Think of how somebody in Maine had their life impacted the same way somebody in Texas did after a battle in Gettysburg, PA. Think of how tragic the Civil War was for everybody and how the victors chose to deal with the victory and how the defeated dealt with defeat. This shit is over and done and dealt with and was 150 years ago. There is no net positive to be gained from tearing down old confederate statues. None. It is vandalism and lawlessness, plain and simple. It happened in Durham, so I doubt the offenders will even be prosecuted (and it looks like the penalty is on par with a code of conduct offense at Wake), but they should be charged the maximum allowable under law.

And make no mistake, this isn't about the Civil War. This is about passing judgment upon people who lived in a different time and place for things we find truly incomprehensible today. Civil war monuments today, slaveholder founders tomorrow.
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So how about we just put them in a museum then? Problem solved.
 
DeacHead said:
Apologies if this is in one of the other threads, but NC gov Cooper took a bold stance:

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Fuck it, it's the right call. Who knows, Trump's numbers could be so low by 2020 that it doesn't matter.
 
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