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Pop's brilliance about race.

jhmd2000 said:
Breaking: snowflakes stick together.
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You know he's right. The men in the NFL have overcome astronomical odds to get to where they are primarily based off of hard work, dedication, and overcoming a lot of obstacles. That's exactly what you want from people in America, yet you are complaining about how they choose to protest racial inequality because they know how much they had to work to get there.

You're just moving the goalposts on this one. Not surprising, but still sad.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
You know he's right. The men in the NFL have overcome astronomical odds to get to where they are primarily based off of hard work, dedication, and overcoming a lot of obstacles. That's exactly what you want from people in America, yet you are complaining about how they choose to protest racial inequality because they know how much they had to work to get there.

You're just moving the goalposts on this one. Not surprising, but still sad.
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I'm not, of course, but saying this no matter how inapplicable seems to make you guys feel good. Suit yourselves.
 
jhmd2000 said:
1. Undisputed prejudices (historical and present) present inequitable result.
2. Well-intended policies create a public resource that chases out private responsibility (a widely-observable phenomenon) which impacts community subject to #1 at disproportionate rate, creating secondary explosion of family unit, compounding damage from #1.
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So it would be best to focus on fixing 1 & 2, but not wrong to focus on #1. Correct?

So even if we remove those well intentioned but harmful policies (I'm assuming you mean welfare programs here) then we still need to address past and present prejudices.

I want to be clear so correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be admitting that past discrimination is baked into the cycle of poor role models and that present discrimination and policies that breed dependency have exacerbated the problem.
 
Yeah, it's completely illogical why black people would use sports and entertainment to stage protests. Its almost as if their numerical representation in those fields gives them some type of leverage that they dont have elsewhere in society.
 
RChildress107 said:
So it would be best to focus on fixing 1 & 2, but not wrong to focus on #1. Correct?

So even if we remove those well intentioned but harmful policies (I'm assuming you mean welfare programs here) then we still need to address past and present prejudices.

I want to be clear so correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be admitting that past discrimination is baked into the cycle of poor role models and that present discrimination and policies that breed dependency have exacerbated the problem.
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For not the first (or fifteenth) time, past (and present) discrimination is absolutely baked into. Acknowledging a truism is not a plan of action, though.
 
jhmd2000 said:
For not the first (or fifteenth) time, past (and present) discrimination is absolutely baked into. Acknowledging a truism is not a plan of action, though.
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Why don't we try and fix it then? Or at the very least fix the present discrimination? If we all agree on that then why not fix that first?
 
RChildress107 said:
Why don't we try and fix it then? Or at the very least fix the present discrimination? If we all agree on that then why not fix that first?
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I want a pony for my birthday. Can I get one? You want to change the way people secretly feel?

I can't control how you feel. I can control when I have children, whether I finish high school, when I take available work. Solutions must be practical.
 
jhmd2000 said:
I want a pony for my birthday. Can I get one? You want to change the way people secretly feel?

I can't control how you feel. I can control when I have children, whether I finish high school, when I take available work. Solutions must be practical.
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So wait a second. You have no control over how people feel. You also have no control over when people have children, finish high school, or take available work.

But your common sense solution is that other people should not have children out of wedlock, should finish high school, and should take available work. But other people not being racist isn't a solution?
 
RChildress107 said:
So wait a second. You have no control over how people feel. You also have no control over when people have children, finish high school, or take available work.

But your common sense solution is that other people should not have children out of wedlock, should finish high school, and should take available work. But other people not being racist isn't a solution?
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Because I'm not going to be able to make those decisions for them. Neither are you. Neither is the government. That's the non-delegable part of the non-delegable duty.

As to your second paragraph, yes and yes.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Note the past tense.

We agree (generally) that these factors bring us to the present (but disagree probably on the percentage of causation). My question is what about lending practices in the 1960's alters the right decision for what to do tomorrow if you were one of these families. I don't understand how those practices alter the path forward. The path, regardless of where you start, begins with avoiding self-disqualification.
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Where you live (as a child and later) causes a lot of different outcomes throughout the life course. That's basically indisputable at this point.

Policies in the 1920s-1960s had significant effects on where people could live, put down roots, and move. For a lot of the United States, the result has been residential immobility, which is closely linked to socioeconomic immobility. This is one of the key findings in Patrick Sharkey's Stuck in Place, which provides a pretty comprehensive portrayal of this line of thinking.

One particular way is outlined in this paper by Douglas Massey and Jacob Rugh. Where you lived (which in this example was 100% affected by these policies) affected the likelihood of receiving a subprime mortgage, which meant that the likelihood that your asset would be in a bad neighborhood and that you would lose that asset increases dramatically if you're black.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Because I'm not going to be able to make those decisions for them. Neither are you. Neither is the government. That's the non-delegable part of the non-delegable duty.

As to your second paragraph, yes and yes.
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Right but you just admitted that past and present discrimination, along with the unintended consequences of welfare make those decisions harder for some people to make. Would remedying those things thus make those decisions easier to make.

You are right that ultimately we can't make choices for people, but we can give them better/easier choices.
 
jhmd2000 said:
As to your second paragraph, yes and yes.
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So you wake up everyday, acknowledge that both racism and poor choices lead to disparate racial outcomes in this country, and further acknowledge that those poor choices are made in part due to past and present racism, and then choose to focus all of the energy you choose to devote to the problem harping on the poor choices of other people whom you have no control over? But it's a waste of time to talk about racism? WTF is wrong with you?
 
jhmd2000 said:
For not the first (or fifteenth) time, past (and present) discrimination is absolutely baked into. Acknowledging a truism is not a plan of action, though.
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When large swaths of people are not acknowledging the truism, it needs to be re-stated, apparently over and over for over 50 years, to move on past the acknowldegement stage.

But you know this, too. I'm beginning to think that you don't get enough attention in real life, so you come here with this bit to make up for it.
 
jhmd2000 said:
I want a pony for my birthday. Can I get one? You want to change the way people secretly feel?

I can't control how you feel. I can control when I have children, whether I finish high school, when I take available work. Solutions must be practical.
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But maybe they WANT to change how people feel about them, because despite their wealth and success, they are treated with less respect. That sucks, especially when it is a cop or a judge, not to mention average people. But you know this too, you are playing dumb again.
 
WakeandBake said:
You are completely full of shit, and you are not cute anymore.

The men kneeling on the field have done everything you have ever preached - they worked their assess off and channeled their god-given talent. They stayed in school and learned a trade. They committed fully to hard work and sacrifice for their financial independence, many of them starting from nothing. You think they are just being swept up in some liberal wind about racism being systemic? You think they are falling for the lazy argument and just blaming racism for the ills of the communities many of them worked their way out of?

If you were right, these guys - of all people - would be the ones saying it 10 times louder than you. If it were true. They overcame, but they can still recognize and fully understand that systemic racism is real and happening in their communities every day, and that it is unjust. That is what they are protesting. They aren't protesting your point that hard work and focus on family isn't right. You know this
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Excellent post.


myDeaconmyhand said:
Yeah, it's completely illogical why black people would use sports and entertainment to stage protests. Its almost as if their numerical representation in those fields gives them some type of leverage that they dont have elsewhere in society.
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This. If black men were disproportionately represented in politics and criminal justice like white men are, black men wouldn't have to protest. We would just pass laws.
 
RChildress107 said:
So you wake up everyday, acknowledge that both racism and poor choices lead to disparate racial outcomes in this country, and further acknowledge that those poor choices are made in part due to past and present racism, and then choose to focus all of the energy you choose to devote to the problem harping on the poor choices of other people whom you have no control over? But it's a waste of time to talk about racism? WTF is wrong with you?
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Because the people impacted can control the three things I preach (and you practice). What I talk about is more controllable than any other factors.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Because the people impacted can control the three things I preach (and you practice). What I talk about is more controllable than any other factors.
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Go to your black friends who are successful, married fathers and ask them if systemic racism is a mythical excuse created by liberals and coopted by black men to take an easy ride and have someone to blame, and get back to us.
 
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