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Thread: Biggest Reform EVER passed thread

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by palmab03 View Post
    Doubling the standard deduction while losing the exemptions becomes almost inconsequential to me, and really fucks over the poors with kids.

    Well played , pubs.
    This.

  2. #62
    THE quintessential dwarf palmab03's Avatar
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    I just read that one thing on my phone, does it say anywhere that they're getting rid of the exemptions?
    just drivin' round in John Voight's car

  3. #63
    THE quintessential dwarf palmab03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmab03 View Post
    I just read that one thing on my phone, does it say anywhere that they're getting rid of the exemptions?
    Assuming they keep the ranges the same, 12% replacing the 10% and 15% brackets, and the 25% replacing the 25% and 28% brackets, a married couple making $200k/yr with no kids would save about $3k/yr. Once the couple has 2 kids they're basically break-even on the two proposals. They could sweeten it by raising the 12% rate to a higher amount, though.

    Guess I missed the $500 tax credit, guess the married couple is $1,000 better off, but it says "an assumption of $500 per kid" it's not defined. I suppose they can make it better off.
    Last edited by palmab03; 09-27-2017 at 06:49 PM.
    just drivin' round in John Voight's car

  4. #64
    Sounds like the standard deduction loss at the personal exemptions of the married couples and that the child personal exemption will be offset by an increase child tax credit

  5. #65
    THE quintessential dwarf palmab03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL68 View Post
    Sounds like the standard deduction loss at the personal exemptions of the married couples and that the child personal exemption will be offset by an increase child tax credit
    I mean, yes. The average person some people may see $100 or $200/mo more from their paychecks, which is no small thing. But going to tilt's breakdown. People are saving $700 billion with the Standard deduction. $400 billion by expanding the child tax credit. And losing $1.6 trillion by losing the exemptions. So someone is getting the shaft to the tune of $500 billion dollars.
    just drivin' round in John Voight's car

  6. #66
    Impossible to tell. Those numbers are all based on assumptions.

    Most of that would probably be at the higher income levels. Exemptions never are completely income limited, but the child tax credits are.

  7. #67
    Right. Those getting the shaft would be the people making too much to be able to claim the child tax credit. However, those same people probably start to overlap a bit with those benefiting from dumping the AMT. So, even though the Doofi will jizz on Tilt's chart because it is a chart on the internet, ignore it.

  8. #68
    Also credits are much more valuable at lower income levels than exemptions
    If you are in a 15% tax bracket than $1 of credit equals $6 of deduction while if you're in a 33% tax bracket $1 of credit equals $3 reduction

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    So, even though the Doofi will jizz on Tilt's chart because it is a chart on the internet, ignore it.
    lol

  10. #70
    I'm a tax noob, so someone can correct me here. But if they are keeping the mortgage interest deduction and charitable deduction and eliminating the others while increasing the standard deduction to $24K, wouldn't that de facto end the mortgage interest deduction for all but the richest people/most expensive houses anyway? If you are going to do that, why not just get rid of it altogether?

  11. #71
    it is way too early to do much analysis on this, it's an 8 page outline. But clearly it's going to explode the deficit, just like the Bush tax cuts. If they want to make it look even remotely revenue neutral, they're going to have to assume growth rates that are unheard of in a mature industrialized economy. Our taxation system is certainly a drag on the economy, but pretending that eliminating some deductions and changing some brackets is going to unleash 5 or 6% growth is a joke.

    What is actually going to happen is a recession. The housing markets are at all time peaks, stocks are way overvalued, junk bonds and corporate leveraged debts are at levels higher than they were before 2007. The economic cycle is due for a correction, and correct it will, tax cuts or no. In fact, if this tax cut does create some additional frothiness in the financial markets, the inevitable contraction will probably be even worse. So if some version of this gets passed and cuts Federal tax receipts, it will be just in time for a recession to come along that will further cut government revenue. $20 trillion in debt? You ain't seen nothing yet.

  12. #72
    PM a mod to cement your internet status forever RJKarl's Avatar
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    Whoda thunk that if you cut revenues and expand spending that you'd create debt?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon923 View Post
    it is way too early to do much analysis on this, it's an 8 page outline. But clearly it's going to explode the deficit, just like the Bush tax cuts. If they want to make it look even remotely revenue neutral, they're going to have to assume growth rates that are unheard of in a mature industrialized economy. Our taxation system is certainly a drag on the economy, but pretending that eliminating some deductions and changing some brackets is going to unleash 5 or 6% growth is a joke.

    What is actually going to happen is a recession. The housing markets are at all time peaks, stocks are way overvalued, junk bonds and corporate leveraged debts are at levels higher than they were before 2007. The economic cycle is due for a correction, and correct it will, tax cuts or no. In fact, if this tax cut does create some additional frothiness in the financial markets, the inevitable contraction will probably be even worse. So if some version of this gets passed and cuts Federal tax receipts, it will be just in time for a recession to come along that will further cut government revenue. $20 trillion in debt? You ain't seen nothing yet.
    You are likely right about a recession, but that will happen regardless of tax cuts. And most lower/middle class families will be much better suited to ride out a recession with higher exemption amounts and child tax credits.

    And that flat tax for pass-throughs is no joke. I think that could be a huge economic boon for small businesses picking up workers laid off from larger corps in a recession. Again it doesn't prevent it, but it could help shorten it.
    Last edited by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz; 09-28-2017 at 10:14 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by tiltdeac View Post
    I'm a tax noob, so someone can correct me here. But if they are keeping the mortgage interest deduction and charitable deduction and eliminating the others while increasing the standard deduction to $24K, wouldn't that de facto end the mortgage interest deduction for all but the richest people/most expensive houses anyway? If you are going to do that, why not just get rid of it altogether?
    Because if you came out and formally ended it, the housing and mortgage industries would shit a brick. This backdoors the same effect but without the negative connotation to the industry.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by tiltdeac View Post
    I'm a tax noob, so someone can correct me here. But if they are keeping the mortgage interest deduction and charitable deduction and eliminating the others while increasing the standard deduction to $24K, wouldn't that de facto end the mortgage interest deduction for all but the richest people/most expensive houses anyway? If you are going to do that, why not just get rid of it altogether?
    Especially if they're getting rid of state tax deductions too. Not much more that most folks can add to mortgage interest to get above 24k.

  16. #76
    Apparently Republicans don't really give a shit about the debt.

  17. #77
    PM a mod to cement your internet status forever RJKarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdinBama View Post
    Apparently Republicans don't really give a shit about the debt.
    From Reagan forward, they clearly haven't. Other than during Civil or World War, no one increased the national debt by a larger percentage than Reagan. Daddy Bush set record deficits. Clinton ended Reagan/Bush deficits and created surpluses. W exploded the debt by cutting taxes during a war of choice. Then, Obama cut W'd deficits by 2/3. Now, Trump wants to explode again.

  18. #78
    Oh yeah, this standard deduction raise would jack up charitable contributions as well. That "tax deductible" contribution to NPR or komen will no longer be deductible for most folks. Although most middle class non property owners are probably not currently itemizing, the raise will wipe out another tier of middle to upper middle class itemizers.

    Which I guess isn't a deal breaker since most folks donate to this stuff regardless of deductibility but when some folks (cough jh) are proposing to wipe out wide swaths of entitlements and throw folks into dependency on private charity, any disincentive to donate could hurt.

  19. #79
    Robert O'Kelley
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    From what I can estimate at this time, my taxes are going up. Thx Trump.
    I love mankind...itís people I canít stand!!

  20. #80
    Hey man, don't complain about paying your fair share.

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