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Thread: Biggest Reform EVER passed thread

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by palmab03 View Post
    Is it really that hard to guess whether you'll be worth $20 million or $8 million? And lets say you guess the latter and you're wrong, your kids only get $15 million, Who gives a shit?
    The issue is the liquidity. Somebody "worth" $20 mil for estate tax purposes usually doesn't have $20 mil in cash lying around, it is the paper value of an ongoing business. The estate gets hit with a $5 mil tax and doesn't have the cash to pay it, and it is usually difficult to sell off just a portion of the business to generate the cash. And a sell-off of the business to pay the government is the last thing the founder wants to see happen to his hard work (though, of course, we all know he didn't build that). So there needs to be hefty life insurance in place to provide the liquidity, which usually have to start early when the person is healthy to obtain, not when they are 80 with one foot in the grave.

    The other issue is valuation. Their are a hundred different ways to value a business for estate tax purposes, so it can be tough to estimate which way the IRS will go with something until the person is dead. I have one family that I deal with regularly where the business value currently varies from $2 million to $55 million depending on the valuation method and applicable discounts.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    That's great. But no other external context was provided for any of the other eras referenced in Reich's comments that Ph quoted, it was simple ratios as compared to perceived tax policy. So Obama is the only one who gets excuses one way or another for why his term was the worst out of any of them?
    well, the easy answer is to have the GOP stop leaving the Presidency in a recession caused by trickle down economics.

    btw, i didn't say it was an excuse but reality. there is only one way that the debt has really been lowered, with tax increases. i mean why do corporations need such a tax cut? they have the highest profits ever and pay executives higher salaries than ever...why do you think if they had more money they would give that to the lowest workers? couldn't they be doing that now...record profits!

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by warak View Post
    well, the easy answer is to have the GOP stop leaving the Presidency in a recession caused by trickle down economics.

    btw, i didn't say it was an excuse but reality. there is only one way that the debt has really been lowered, with tax increases. i mean why do corporations need such a tax cut? they have the highest profits ever and pay executives higher salaries than ever...why do you think if they had more money they would give that to the lowest workers? couldn't they be doing that now...record profits!
    I mean, God forbid we actually reduce or even just flatline spending. What is it the commielibs always say, poors should just make more money, right?

  4. #124
    PM a mod to cement your internet status forever RJKarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    The issue is the liquidity. Somebody "worth" $20 mil for estate tax purposes usually doesn't have $20 mil in cash lying around, it is the paper value of an ongoing business. The estate gets hit with a $5 mil tax and doesn't have the cash to pay it, and it is usually difficult to sell off just a portion of the business to generate the cash. And a sell-off of the business to pay the government is the last thing the founder wants to see happen to his hard work (though, of course, we all know he didn't build that). So there needs to be hefty life insurance in place to provide the liquidity, which usually have to start early when the person is healthy to obtain, not when they are 80 with one foot in the grave.

    The other issue is valuation. Their are a hundred different ways to value a business for estate tax purposes, so it can be tough to estimate which way the IRS will go with something until the person is dead. I have one family that I deal with regularly where the business value currently varies from $2 million to $55 million depending on the valuation method and applicable discounts.
    Only 80 businesses or farms in the US were hit with that tax in 2015. This is a red herring.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    Only 80 businesses or farms in the US were hit with that tax in 2015. This is a red herring.
    Because the thousands or hundreds of thousands of others spent a shitton of resources to avoid it. Which is my point, it is a waste of an industry.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by warak View Post
    well, the easy answer is to have the GOP stop leaving the Presidency in a recession caused by trickle down economics.

    btw, i didn't say it was an excuse but reality. there is only one way that the debt has really been lowered, with tax increases. i mean why do corporations need such a tax cut? they have the highest profits ever and pay executives higher salaries than ever...why do you think if they had more money they would give that to the lowest workers? couldn't they be doing that now...record profits!
    Well said.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    I mean, God forbid we actually reduce or even just flatline spending. What is it the commielibs always say, poors should just make more money, right?
    i am a fiscal conservative...yes, flat-line spending would be great! however that does not fall in line with GOP ideals. they want more money to rich and hope it helps the economy, which after two presidencies has proved to be false. why give the rich a tax cut or corporations? that makes no sense to me as that is the highest monetary influx.

    btw, i am totally in for revamping poor assistance programs. cutting those programs will promote more crime, etc..

  8. #128
    PM a mod to cement your internet status forever RJKarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    Because the thousands or hundreds of thousands of others spent a shitton of resources to avoid it. Which is my point, it is a waste of an industry.
    There's is no difference from taxing a gift given while alive and taxing it if you give it after you die. A gift is a gift.

    The estate tax is only an issue for 1 family in every 500 and that will go down as the floor of the estate tax goes up. This is simply a giveaway to the very wealthy who don't have the brains to get around it.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by warak View Post
    well, the easy answer is to have the GOP stop leaving the Presidency in a recession caused by trickle down economics.

    btw, i didn't say it was an excuse but reality. there is only one way that the debt has really been lowered, with tax increases. i mean why do corporations need such a tax cut? they have the highest profits ever and pay executives higher salaries than ever...why do you think if they had more money they would give that to the lowest workers? couldn't they be doing that now...record profits!
    Ummmm, who benefits the most from those record profits? Have you ditched your 401k/IRA in full support of social security for your retirement? Those record profits are the only long-term safety net that exists for the working and middle class.

  10. #130
    PM a mod to cement your internet status forever RJKarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warak View Post
    i am a fiscal conservative...yes, flat-line spending would be great! however that does not fall in line with GOP ideals. they want more money to rich and hope it helps the economy, which after two presidencies has proved to be false. why give the rich a tax cut or corporations? that makes no sense to me as that is the highest monetary influx.

    btw, i am totally in for revamping poor assistance programs. cutting those programs will promote more crime, etc..
    Flat-line is impossible in a growing population and as costs go up. Flat-line spending equates to cutting needed spending and harming people.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    There's is no difference from taxing a gift given while alive and taxing it if you give it after you die. A gift is a gift.

    The estate tax is only an issue for 1 family in every 500 and that will go down as the floor of the estate tax goes up. This is simply a giveaway to the very wealthy who don't have the brains to get around it.
    Sweet, so now we're aiming to simply tax stupid? Because I have a lot of new taxes in mind if that is the goal.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    Flat-line is impossible in a growing population and as costs go up. Flat-line spending equates to cutting needed spending and harming people.
    That is based on a big assumption that all current spending is needed.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    Sweet, so now we're aiming to simply tax stupid? Because I have a lot of new taxes in mind if that is the goal.
    Of course you neglected the most basic premise, a gift is a gift.

  14. #134
    PM a mod to cement your internet status forever RJKarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    That is based on a big assumption that all current spending is needed.
    That's not relevant. If worthy programs are flat-lined, they are effectively cut every year whether they need the money or not.

    The concept of flat-lining any program is, by definition, harmful to millions of people.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    Ummmm, who benefits the most from those record profits? Have you ditched your 401k/IRA in full support of social security for your retirement? Those record profits are the only long-term safety net that exists for the working and middle class.
    I am not sure of the correlation between my 401k spending and corporate profits and adding a tax cut. is the idea that the stock market will continue to climb? certain publications indicate "As of 2013, the 10 percent of households with the highest wealth owned more than 80 percent of all stock shares. The bottom 80 percent of all households owned just 8 percent." all i can say is thank you Obama for 7 years of a bull market (without the tax cuts). more and more for the rich!

    but answer this...why are middle class (and lower) wages falling as corporate profits are rising? in your example they should be growing linearly?


    i found this interesting:

    "It is no coincidence the market nearly tripled under President Bill Clinton and again under President Barack Obama while it declined under President George W. Bush and nearly crashed (Black Monday) toward the end of the trickle-down-economics of the Reagan era.

    The stock market rises and falls with return on investment of its constituents.The Democrat increases benefits to the poor and reduces taxes on the middle class. The poor are able to buy food, clothing and education for their children, and the middle class are able to buy better computers, automobiles and housing. With more customers, business prospers. The stock market and retirement plans go up.

    The Republican reduces taxes on the rich and reduces benefits to the poor. The rich already have all the houses, cars and computers money can buy. The only thing the rich man can do is invest his excess money in the stock market. With increased investment and fewer customers, return on investment falls. The stock market and retirement plans go down."
    Last edited by warak; 09-29-2017 at 12:44 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by 2&2 Slider To Leyritz View Post
    Ummmm, who benefits the most from those record profits? Have you ditched your 401k/IRA in full support of social security for your retirement? Those record profits are the only long-term safety net that exists for the working and middle class.
    this is a great point.

    But this doesn't seem like such a wise design, does it? It basically means that for our own retirement benefit we must cozy legislatively up to whatever provides the greatest profits for publicly traded companies, forget what that means for society (keep those prison profits up!), the environment, geo-politics (gotta get those oil profits up!), health care (gotta keep those pharma profits up!), etc..

    The more I think about it the worse it sounds
    Last edited by WakeandBake; 09-29-2017 at 01:07 PM.

  17. #137
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    Right. Our system of wealth generation is based on collecting table scraps from the rich and paying for the right to do so.

  18. #138
    i guess that was the end...

    will post this still: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000009

    "Former Ronald Reagan economic adviser Bruce Bartlett, who helped write Reaganís tax cuts and literally wrote the book on Reaganomics, published an op-ed in the Washington Post on Thursday titled: ďI helped create the GOP tax myth. Trump is wrong: Tax cuts donít equal growth.Ē"




    Last edited by warak; 09-29-2017 at 01:53 PM.

  19. #139
    that seems bad for many posters' entire worldview. It was a myth? oh dear....
    Last edited by WakeandBake; 09-29-2017 at 02:15 PM.

  20. #140
    MOAR tax cuts!


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