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BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Charles Coleman de-commits to Wake. :(

knowell said:
You have to admire the beauty of RChills position.

You being able to accurately read the tea leaves and see a myriad of deficiencies in manning's coaching is just you being a pessimistic fan since the data is still incomplete.

If somehow Manning accomplishes the unlikely and has a measure of success, RChill is vindicated. If his failure continues, RChill is still vindicated as your position was premature while his position became clear with just the right amount of information.

To those with limited vision, foresight appears unjustified.

For a more extreme version of this, see Wellman: Ronald.
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Almost certainly not. Unless he lands Cole Anthony and Trevor Samuel, then any success Manning has at Wake going forward will not be a vindication for me. Which is fine, because I don’t need vindication.

The people that gave Hillary a 99% chance to win the election weren’t idiots because she lost, they were idiots because the outcome was never that certain. Had she won the election they certainly wouldn’t have been “vindicated” though they would certainly claim it anyway.
 
We need a winning basketball program. Fuck vindication.
 
DeacDaddy said:
Hmm. When I and others said it wasn’t looking like a good class coming together because we were continually missing out on top prospects, RChill the Official Board Gatekeeper™️ told us it was too soon to make that call. Now you’re saying you knew they were never likely to come.

So once again, many saw the shortcomings of DM spelling bad news down the road toward the beginning of his tenure, just like we saw the likely outcome of this class toward the beginning of the recruiting period. And we’ve been right twice. But in both cases you told us we couldn’t make those cases until you’d granted permission for us to do so.

Thanks for all the entertainment! It’s been a source of distracting delight in these dark basketball times.
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See my post above.

Y’all were very close to being proven wrong on the first one (so much so that y’all were warming up the “but for John Collins” excuse), I have no idea how close you were to being wrong on the second.
 
RChildress107 said:
Almost certainly not. Unless he lands Cole Anthony and Trevor Samuel, then any success Manning has at Wake going forward will not be a vindication for me. Which is fine, because I don’t need vindication.

The people that gave Hillary a 99% chance to win the election weren’t idiots because she lost, they were idiots because the outcome was never that certain. Had she won the election they certainly wouldn’t have been “vindicated” though they would certainly claim it anyway.
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So you are saying that you were way off base in your expectations of Manning being at least a mediocre coach?

It's okay, Ron still thinks it is going to happen. Not everyone can have good judgement. What kind of world would that be?
 
DeacDaddy said:
Hmm. When I and others said it wasn’t looking like a good class coming together because we were continually missing out on top prospects, RChill the Official Board Gatekeeper™️ told us it was too soon to make that call. Now you’re saying you knew they were never likely to come.

So once again, many saw the shortcomings of DM spelling bad news down the road toward the beginning of his tenure, just like we saw the likely outcome of this class toward the beginning of the recruiting period. And we’ve been right twice. But in both cases you told us we couldn’t make those cases until you’d granted permission for us to do so.

Thanks for all the entertainment! It’s been a source of distracting delight in these dark basketball times.
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1. .75 x .75 x .75 x .75 x .75 = .237

2. I always find it fascinating when grown men think they need someone else’s permission to post on a message board. You’re allowed to post like an idiot and I’m allowed to point that out.
 
knowell said:
So you are saying that you were way off base in your expectations of Manning being at least a mediocre coach?

It's okay, Ron still thinks it is going to happen. Not everyone can have good judgement. What kind of world would that be?
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No. My assessment of Manning (and most coaches tbh) has always been that he will be successful on the court if he is successful on the recruiting trail, that he showed initial promise on the recruiting trail, but that he was walking a knife’s edge in trying to turn early recruiting wins into success in order to drive subsequent recruiting wins. I still haven’t seen any evidence that makes me question that assessment.

Manning put the program in a position where John Collins staying or leaving was like a raindrop falling on the continental divide, which way it goes can make a huge impact on the final destination. That’s an indictment of Manning’s coaching ability (and an even larger indictment of Wellman) but it was also a far better position than any we were in under [Redacted].
 
RChildress107 said:
No. My assessment of Manning (and most coaches tbh) has always been that he will be successful on the court if he is successful on the recruiting trail, that he showed initial promise on the recruiting trail, but that he was walking a knife’s edge in trying to turn early recruiting wins into success in order to drive subsequent recruiting wins. I still haven’t seen any evidence that makes me question that assessment.

Manning put the program in a position where John Collins staying or leaving was like a raindrop falling on the continental divide, which way it goes can make a huge impact on the final destination. That’s an indictment of Manning’s coaching ability (and an even larger indictment of Wellman) but it was also a far better position than any we were in under [Redacted].
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That is one way to look at it. I think that if you cannot maximize the talent you already have, you will be hard pressed to get more.

When recruits see a well run program that players like playing for and that exceeds expectations, they are more likely to further their career with that coach. When they see incoherent strategies, late game collapses, friction among players, and a lack of fundamental leadership, they are not coming. The more Manning coached, the more obvious it became.

You may look at KenPom and see that Wake was teetering on a razors edge. Many others saw a man out of his depth with no ready answers.
 
knowell said:
That is one way to look at it. I think that if you cannot maximize the talent you already have, you will be hard pressed to get more.

When recruits see a well run program that players like playing for and that exceeds expectations, they are more likely to further their career with that coach. When they see incoherent strategies, late game collapses, friction among players, and a lack of fundamental leadership, they are not coming. The more Manning coached, the more obvious it became.

You may look at KenPom and see that Wake was teetering on a razors edge. Many others saw a man out of his depth with no ready answers.
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Yeah I think a quick glance at the recruiting rankings makes clear that the exceptions eat up the rule.

I think it’s a safe bet that recruits aren’t looking at either of these. But to the point, you don’t need Kenpom to look back and see how Collins returning likely would have changed outcomes on the court and the recruiting trail.
 
RChildress107 said:
1. .75 x .75 x .75 x .75 x .75 = .237

2. I always find it fascinating when grown men think they need someone else’s permission to post on a message board. You’re allowed to post like an idiot and I’m allowed to point that out.
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So the ones who were right about Manning from early on are the idiots?

He fashions himself a laid-back data analyst, but I’ve never seen another poster more desperate for a vindication than this guy.
 
I think differing opinions like RChildress107 should be accepted without the constant attacks. Just because you don't agree with him, doesn't make him always wrong nor some of you always right. Personally I think Manning is an awful bench coach and we need to replace him but I don't understand why some here can't tolerate other opinions without becoming abusive. One would think this is like the politics we see in this country today where everyone is so entrenched discussion becomes pointless and tedious. I realize this will not go over well with a lot of posters and so be it, it just is becoming unreadable on some threads. We all are (or should be) Deacon fans here
 
sportsnut said:
I think differing opinions like RChildress107 should be accepted without the constant attacks. Just because you don't agree with him, doesn't make him always wrong nor some of you always right. Personally I think Manning is an awful bench coach and we need to replace him but I don't understand why some here can't tolerate other opinions without becoming abusive. One would think this is like the politics we see in this country today where everyone is so entrenched discussion becomes pointless and tedious. I realize this will not go over well with a lot of posters and so be it, it just is becoming unreadable on some threads. We all are (or should be) Deacon fans here
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Well said
 
It's not the argument or point of view. It's the presentation. For most of those disagreeing.
 
I think the whole argument boils down to the importance of bench coaching vs recruiting.

Obviously we ideally want both in a coach. Some feel that recruiting is 90% of the game and a coach affects the game on the margins. Rchill is closer to this view.

I think it is closer to 50-50 or 40-60 in college. The other important factor is that good bench coaching and skill development will attract talent. Being bad in these areas will eventually repel talent.

I think that is where we are now. We all have seen Manning's bench coaching and some of the stuff he has done is indefensible.

Manning spent most of his career in the NBA and far too little time being a head coach at this level. That is not his fault but he was not and is not ready to be a head coach in the ACC.
 
sportsnut said:
I think differing opinions like RChildress107 should be accepted without the constant attacks. Just because you don't agree with him, doesn't make him always wrong nor some of you always right. Personally I think Manning is an awful bench coach and we need to replace him but I don't understand why some here can't tolerate other opinions without becoming abusive. One would think this is like the politics we see in this country today where everyone is so entrenched discussion becomes pointless and tedious. I realize this will not go over well with a lot of posters and so be it, it just is becoming unreadable on some threads. We all are (or should be) Deacon fans here
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The degrees of disagreement with RC107 are in reality minuscule. We all agree that Manning is better than BZ but still pretty much sucks and is not good enough for Wake. RC107 is just a tremendous stickler of nuanced ratings and data and relentlessly argues with people that either don’t interpret the data the way he does or prefer different data points. He really can be a complete dick about it and it gets tiresome.
 
knowell said:
I think the whole argument boils down to the importance of bench coaching vs recruiting.

Obviously we ideally want both in a coach. Some feel that recruiting is 90% of the game and a coach affects the game on the margins. Rchill is closer to this view.

I think it is closer to 50-50 or 40-60 in college. The other important factor is that good bench coaching and skill development will attract talent. Being bad in these areas will eventually repel talent.

I think that is where we are now. We all have seen Manning's bench coaching and some of the stuff he has done is indefensible.

Manning spent most of his career in the NBA and far too little time being a head coach at this level. That is not his fault but he was not and is not ready to be a head coach in the ACC.
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Totally agree, he is out of his element in Major College coaching
 
birdman said:
The degrees of disagreement with RC107 are in reality minuscule. We all agree that Manning is better than BZ but still pretty much sucks and is not good enough for Wake. RC107 is just a tremendous stickler of nuanced ratings and data and relentlessly argues with people that either don’t interpret the data the way he does or prefer different data points. He really can be a complete dick about it and it gets tiresome.
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And yet this board spends a conspicuous amount of time on “tiresome” arguments of “minuscule” disagreements.
 
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