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Hire Ryan Odom

WFU Lurker said:
Wake isn't one of the worst P5 jobs though. We are pretty clearly better a job than BC, Miami, VT, and Clemson. That's just within our own conference.
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Not trying to argue with you specifically but what makes anyone think that at this point our job is better than these or almost any other in P5??

Our program is a dumpster fire that has regressed dramatically over the last decade and is accelerating over the last year specifically. We have a lot of the same challenges of, say, NC State with the proximity of the blue bloods and trying to play third (well currently 4th) fiddle in our own freaking back yard.

FTR, I’d be on board for hiring Odom this afternoon. No need to wait for the Kansas State game.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Wake isn't one of the worst P5 jobs though. We are pretty clearly better a job than BC, Miami, VT, and Clemson. That's just within our own conference.
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Nope. BC is probably similarly desirable, but the other three are far and way better jobs. Bigger school, bigger resources, more diverse and attractive student experience, and less sanctimonious AD and administration. Wake is a shit job now.

The only hope is to hire a young, unproven hot coach like Odom, or a coach who failed in his first attempt at this level and now has a chip on his shoulder, like Clawson.
 
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With the 11-20 4th season results Manning should have been immediately dismissed and Wellman in Charlotte this afternoon should be hiring Odom 2.0.
 
lazydeac said:
Not trying to argue with you specifically but what makes anyone think that at this point our job is better than these or almost any other in P5??

Our program is a dumpster fire that has regressed dramatically over the last decade and is accelerating over the last year specifically. We have a lot of the same challenges of, say, NC State with the proximity of the blue bloods and trying to play third (well currently 4th) fiddle in our own freaking back yard.

FTR, I’d be on board for hiring Odom this afternoon. No need to wait for the Kansas State game.
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it's not. outside of BC, I don't know how you could argue wake is a better job than Miami, VT or Clemson.
 
lazydeac said:
Not trying to argue with you specifically but what makes anyone think that at this point our job is better than these or almost any other in P5??

Our program is a dumpster fire that has regressed dramatically over the last decade and is accelerating over the last year specifically. We have a lot of the same challenges of, say, NC State with the proximity of the blue bloods and trying to play third (well currently 4th) fiddle in our own freaking back yard.

FTR, I’d be on board for hiring Odom this afternoon. No need to wait for the Kansas State game.
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It's easy to be a prisoner of the moment and say that it's really hard to win at Wake, but that just isn't really true. [Redacted] wasn't able to win here. Manning hasn't been able to win much here so far. But in the 20 years before that the program won a lot, especially compared to those four programs. Virginia Tech and Miami in particular are in the middle of great stretches, but that doesn't make them great jobs because it isn't clear they will have the consistent level of support needed to maintain that success under different coaches. Wake does have that. The easist proof point is the Shah basketball complex. We broke ground on a $40 million basketball facility after a 6 year stretch with a high water mark of 17 wins.

Beyond that, look at salary. Even with his modest success, Manning does better than Larranaga (by ~$300k), Christian (by ~$700k), and Brownell (by ~$150k). And, after one good but not great season, Manning got a 6 year extension. Look, we obviously aren't paying Manning like Virginia Tech is paying Buzz Williams, but he hasn't accomplished as much. Based on what we paid Grobe when he was in demand, there's no reason to think we wouldn't give a basketball coach a huge salary if he was successful.

Finally, look at reported attendance. As discussed extensively in the past, this isn't a literal measure of attendance but it is a measure of support:
-Wake Forest: 9520
-Miami: 7006
-Virginia Tech: 6658
-Boston College: 3411
-Clemson: 8703
(this is for the 2015-16 season)
 
yea think you guys are looking at the wake job from two different perspectives: current vs traditional. Traditionally, I'd say wake is a better job than clemson, miami, and virginia tech. Currently, probably not as all of those teams made the ncaa tournament and we were trash.
 
BillBrasky said:
Nope. BC is probably similarly desirable, but the other three are far and way better jobs. Bigger school, bigger resources, more diverse and attractive student experience, and less sanctimonious AD and administration. Wake is a shit job now.

The only hope is to hire a young, unproven hot coach like Odom, or a coach who failed in his first attempt at this level and now has a chip on his shoulder, like Clawson.
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It baffles my mind that anyone could think BC is remotely on the same level as Wake Forest. I mean basketball is the third sport there.
 
PhDeac said:
Who is the 50 year old with 15 years of success you have in mind? Could we get him over other programs? Could we afford to pay him the big bucks he will command?

The game has changed. We can’t assume a top mid-major coach will want to come to Wake. We definitely can’t assume he would choose Wake.

We need to get a guy before he gets that mid-major job and has success.
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Based on the last coaching search, I agree with this post. We couldn't get Archie Miller or Mike White. Just being in the ACC doesn't appear to be a compelling enough reason to make a hot mid-major coach want to leave a comfortable job to come to Wake. Not only has college basketball changed, and a guy can stay at Dayton or Butler or Xavier or VCU and make good money, go deep in March, and wait for the perfect job to open, but Wake is not as attractive a job as we've been in the past because we've sucked balls for almost a decade. Also, there is no way we're ever getting a successful guy at another high major school (Jay Wright, Billy Donovan). Look around - unless you're a blue blood (UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA), those guys don't leave for other high major jobs.

Ultimately it seems like we have 2 choices - hire an older guy who has been run out of a P5 job (Rick Barnes, Ben Howland, Thad Matta, Tom Crean), or a low or mid major guy who has not yet fully blown up and turned into a hot name. That's just reality now.
 
First it's laughable that every time a coach pulls an 1st round upset there is the inevitable 'we should hire him'. One of the reason's Manning is here is because he got Tulsa into the NCAA's in yr 2, so tell me that's proof any coach with one magic run is automatically in the running for a Wake job.

The problem for Wake is that while it may be attractive historically (seriously Childress has to have the most referenced ACCT moment in the history of the conference, and it's been 23 years), but it's not a slam dunk place to recruit at. The reason Skip was great was he 'got Wake' leveraged our benefits to minimize the challenges. And I think you have to have a guy that thinks, I want to beat dook and UNC. For a lot of coaches, coming to the ACC means they've got 3-4 top 10 games on their schedule automatically. Go to the SEC, It's KY and some random good team. Big 12, it's Kansas and some random good team. Big 10, it's Mich and the random good team. ACC you are starting with dook, UNC and 2-3 random good teams. Given all that, I believe we've invested in our facilities, so compared to a lot of teams looking up at the top teams, we've made the investment so a new coach doesn't have worry about sub par facilities that hurts recruiting.

Bennett, while a really good (maybe great) coach is probably more like a Dave Odom + coach. Builds team around defense, that wins you a lot of game in the regular sesaon, but when the NCAA's come can't score enough to string together the 4 wins need to get to the final 4.

Ryan Odom beat UVA because he had a midget hitting floaters from the 3pt line. Just saying, coaches look brilliant when their players can't miss.
 
Is it really “laughable?”

Wake hasn’t had a coach with an NCAA Tournament win since NCAA.

As far as I can tell, Wake has only had one coach who came to Wake with an NCAA Tournament win as a head coach. That was Skip with one win five seasons before he came to Wake.

So yeah. Wake fans should be impressed with coaches who have NCAA wins. Sure every year 32 coaches get at least one but few end up having anything to do with Wake.
 
BillBrasky said:
Nope. BC is probably similarly desirable, but the other three are far and way better jobs. Bigger school, bigger resources, more diverse and attractive student experience, and less sanctimonious AD and administration. Wake is a shit job now.

The only hope is to hire a young, unproven hot coach like Odom, or a coach who failed in his first attempt at this level and now has a chip on his shoulder, like Clawson.
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Oh, you’re on the Clawson train now after 4 years of dogging him and saying he would never succeed at Wake? Great insight, there. Your take on basketball programs is equally as bad. Wake pays bball coaches more, draws much higher attendance, invests more in bball, has greater financial resources, is a higher rated academic school, has a better bball history, and has more recognizable NBA players than any of the schools you listed and than many other power 5 schools.
 
BillBrasky said:
Nope. BC is probably similarly desirable, but the other three are far and way better jobs. Bigger school, bigger resources, more diverse and attractive student experience, and less sanctimonious AD and administration. Wake is a shit job now.

The only hope is to hire a young, unproven hot coach like Odom, or a coach who failed in his first attempt at this level and now has a chip on his shoulder, like Clawson.
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Where did Clawson fail?
 
WFU Lurker said:
It's easy to be a prisoner of the moment and say that it's really hard to win at Wake, but that just isn't really true. [name redacted] wasn't able to win here. Manning hasn't been able to win much here so far. But in the 20 years before that the program won a lot, especially compared to those four programs. Virginia Tech and Miami in particular are in the middle of great stretches, but that doesn't make them great jobs because it isn't clear they will have the consistent level of support needed to maintain that success under different coaches. Wake does have that. The easist proof point is the Shah basketball complex. We broke ground on a $40 million basketball facility after a 6 year stretch with a high water mark of 17 wins.

Beyond that, look at salary. Even with his modest success, Manning does better than Larranaga (by ~$300k), Christian (by ~$700k), and Brownell (by ~$150k). And, after one good but not great season, Manning got a 6 year extension. Look, we obviously aren't paying Manning like Virginia Tech is paying Buzz Williams, but he hasn't accomplished as much. Based on what we paid Grobe when he was in demand, there's no reason to think we wouldn't give a basketball coach a huge salary if he was successful.

Finally, look at reported attendance. As discussed extensively in the past, this isn't a literal measure of attendance but it is a measure of support:
-Wake Forest: 9520
-Miami: 7006
-Virginia Tech: 6658
-Boston College: 3411
-Clemson: 8703
(this is for the 2015-16 season)
Click to expand...

Also, when we talk about ability to win, we're really talking about ability to recruit. Manning and his staff, who are a pretty inexperienced bunch in terms of high major recruiting, are recruiting at the same level as Buzz and at a higher level than Brownell and Christian. Larranaga is apart from the rest though, but he also has a better story to sell than anyone else in this grouping, having had multiple years of success prior to even 2015.

Average player rating by year (247)
2015
Wake - 93.94
Virginia Tech - 92.51
Miami - 90.79
Clemson - 89.13
Boston College - 85.09
2016
Miami - 93.71
Clemson - 87.73
Wake - 87.03
Virginia Tech - 84.51
Boston College - 83.91
2017
Miami - 95.18
Virginia Tech - 94.49
Clemson - 90.05
Wake - 88.09 (this is brought down by Okeke - I left him in because I don't want to start going down that rabbit hole)
Boston College - 86.48
2018
Wake - 93.11
Boston College - 92.93
Virginia Tech - 91.81
Clemson - 90.07
Miami - N/A
Across all 5 years
(this is a simple average, which is obviously a shit way to do this, but easy)
Miami - 93.26
Virginia Tech - 90.83
Wake - 90.54
Clemson - 89.05
Boston College - 87.10
 
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PhDeac said:
Is it really “laughable?”

Wake hasn’t had a coach with an NCAA Tournament win since NCAA.

As far as I can tell, Wake has only had one coach who came to Wake with an NCAA Tournament win as a head coach. That was Skip with one win five seasons before he came to Wake.

So yeah. Wake fans should be impressed with coaches who have NCAA wins. Sure every year 32 coaches get at least one but few end up having anything to do with Wake.
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One NCAA win, we have standards.
 
Deac83 said:
One NCAA win, we have standards.
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cant tell this by reading the recruiting thread. we should be happy with our expectation of using under the radar players to get us back! it has been working great dont ya think?
 
And if we compiled everyone's particulars and thoughts on this, can't be too old (see Larranaga, I think he was 60 when he went to Miami, so we should exclude those over 50), 35-45 years old with NCAA wins etc.

The one coach that was easily available in the last couple of years, that would have been a great fit for Wake was Rick Barnes. Hates the ACC duopoly to the East of Winston. Proven record, willing to speak out against the conference leadership, lots of NCAAT wins. From western NC. Probably would have retired as the Wake coach. The biggest negative is that he gave Gaudio his only post season win.

And yes, I know our timing was hugely bad for him.
 
Deac83 said:
And if we compiled everyone's particulars and thoughts on this, can't be too old (see Larranaga, I think he was 60 when he went to Miami, so we should exclude those over 50), 35-45 years old with NCAA wins etc.

The one coach that was easily available in the last couple of years, that would have been a great fit for Wake was Rick Barnes. Hates the ACC duopoly to the East of Winston. Proven record, willing to speak out against the conference leadership, lots of NCAAT wins. From western NC. Probably would have retired as the Wake coach. The biggest negative is that he gave Gaudio his only post season win.

And yes, I know our timing was hugely bad for him.
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just give manning time...he just needs time for everything to fall right into place....just time
 
canadiandeac said:
just give manning time...he just needs time for everything to fall right into place....just time
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I just don't think we get a vote either way. Besides if there was going to be a firing it would have been done by now. Based on this he's getting more time no matter what.
 
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