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The demise of Wake Forest Basketball

91deac said:
My 2 cents - I was coaching AAU basketball with JT Terrell's uncle, when Dino got fired. I showed up at practice one night and he was the one who told me Dino had been fired. According to him, Wellman and Dino were meeting to review the status of the program. In that meeting, Wellman told Dino the players in the program were getting out of control and that we would no longer be recruiting one-and-done type kids. He wanted to recruit talented players, but ones that would stay 4 years (get their degree) and be good representatives of Wake Forest. Dino protested, saying 'the teams that win the ACC are the teams with the most NBA talent'. Wellman demanded the change and when Dino stood his ground (he had a nice buyout), Wellman fired him.

To me, that fits well with what heard and saw in the proceeding years.
- We did have a few players that were 'majoring in pre-NBA'
- There were some disciplinary issues (debatable whether is was more than we have seen since the change)
- No way Wellman was going to announce the change in recruiting philosophy, so he blamed the March collapses
- I heard Skip say several time, the teams that consistently win the ACC are the ones with the most NBA players
- Wellman was targeting Brad Stevens, so he could implement the 4 year "butler" plan
- We know what happened when that fell through, but how many times did Wellman and Redacted mention gym rats and five-star hearts?
- The word 'Culture' became a drinking game during Wake basketball broadcasts

It seems like a foregone conclusion now, but at the time many top-tier programs (like Duke for example) where deciding whether they wanted to follow a Kentucky like 'one-and-done' model or whether bringing in more top four-year type players made the most sense. Wellman choose five-star hearts and hired an incompetent buffoon to implement his plan.

Wake basketball used to matter to me - now I barely even watch any of the games.
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All true.

What isn’t true: Dino hooking up with female students/cheerleaders. Absolutely not true.
 
It’s becoming clearer that Wellman mentioned his vision to prospective job candidates.
 
A lot of sad realities in this thread. I think most can agree that after the redacted debacle, and with the current situation with DM, we are still years away from being able to truly take pride in the program again. This has nothing to do with whether DM gets next years team to barely squeak into NCAAs. We all know that a DM-led squad will almost certainly never make a deep run into the tourney.

What's interesting is that we're all in the catch-22 situation of hoping that DM gets fired next year, but also fearing what incompetent coach Wellman will hire next. On the flip side, I think most would agree that Wellman bringing in Clawson was exactly what the football program needed. After a couple years of legitimate struggle, Clawson now has the program heading in a very solid direction from my point of view. Clawson takes pride in the hard work it takes to be successful in the ACC at WFU, and it's personal. At some level, it really is the responsibility of the coach to take pride in his contribution to the program.

If Wellman could even stumble into hiring the right coach for the hoops team, I don't think it would take long (1-2 years) to get back on track. However, it will take to time rebuild the fanbase to what it once was.
 
suck my deac said:
A lot of sad realities in this thread. I think most can agree that after the redacted debacle, and with the current situation with DM, we are still years away from being able to truly take pride in the program again. This has nothing to do with whether DM gets next years team to barely squeak into NCAAs. We all know that a DM-led squad will almost certainly never make a deep run into the tourney.

What's interesting is that we're all in the catch-22 situation of hoping that DM gets fired next year, but also fearing what incompetent coach Wellman will hire next. On the flip side, I think most would agree that Wellman bringing in Clawson was exactly what the football program needed. After a couple years of legitimate struggle, Clawson now has the program heading in a very solid direction from my point of view. Clawson takes pride in the hard work it takes to be successful in the ACC at WFU, and it's personal. At some level, it really is the responsibility of the coach to take pride in his contribution to the program.

If Wellman could even stumble into hiring the right coach for the hoops team, I don't think it would take long (1-2 years) to get back on track. However, it will take to time rebuild the fanbase to what it once was.
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I think the difference is the sports. In basketball recruiting players who will be gone in 1-2 years leads to success. In football keeping players and developing them is rewarded. You need completely different types of coaches to be successful. Basketball is about bringing in established talent and getting them to play as a team or "buy into" a team philosophy. Football is about bringing in guys that fit your system and developing them at each position. Teamwork is more inherent in football, no one man can win a game. Basketball is a sport where you can ride 1 star (e.g. Trae Young) but eventually only talented teams that work together win it all (e.g. Villanova).
 
netflixnchildres said:
I think the difference is the sports. In basketball recruiting players who will be gone in 1-2 years leads to success. In football keeping players and developing them is rewarded. You need completely different types of coaches to be successful. Basketball is about bringing in established talent and getting them to play as a team or "buy into" a team philosophy. Football is about bringing in guys that fit your system and developing them at each position. Teamwork is more inherent in football, no one man can win a game. Basketball is a sport where you can ride 1 star (e.g. Trae Young) but eventually only talented teams that work together win it all (e.g. Villanova).
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Definitely a fair point. However, you could argue though that the road to success for football is a good bit steeper than basketball at WFU. To me, despite the differences it's about how you handle your business as a coach. Even when Clawson was losing, he never lost the fans or players respect by bullshitting them. Redacted/Wellman were the kings of bullshit during those years, and DM doesn't even seem to care enough to try to bullshit anyone. Some honesty, integrity, and accountability in the basketball program would go a long way.
 
suck my deac said:
Definitely a fair point. However, you could argue though that the road to success for football is a good bit steeper than basketball at WFU. To me, despite the differences it's about how you handle your business as a coach. Even when Clawson was losing, he never lost the fans or players respect by bullshitting them. Redacted/Wellman were the kings of bullshit during those years, and DM doesn't even seem to care enough to try to bullshit anyone. Some honesty, integrity, and accountability in the basketball program would go a long way.
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Agreed.
 
Clawson made it clear that we weren’t where we wanted to be but he was getting us there. I was skeptical but I was willing to see him through.

When a coach tries to sell BS to the fan base and clearly has no plan because he’s never executed one before, it’s tough to buy in.
 
even when losing, there was a sense of organization and cohesion in clawson's program.
 
PhDeac said:
Clawson made it clear that we weren’t where we wanted to be but he was getting us there. I was skeptical but I was willing to see him through.

When a coach tries to sell BS to the fan base and clearly has no plan because he’s never executed one before, it’s tough to buy in.
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This. And I truly believe that until we gain some authenticity in leadership back in our hoops program, it's going to continue to be tough sledding ahead. As much as Wellman sets the tone for the whole bs'ing the fanbase approach, I do believe that it's largely on the coach. Clawson has shown he can run a respectable football program with the challenges of coaching in the ACC at WFU, perhaps in spite of Wellman's influence.
 
ChrisL68 said:
even when losing, there was a sense of organization and cohesion in clawson's program.
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And even if it hadn't led to the type of recent success we've had in football, I feel like his strategic, organized, and transparent approach still would have earned and kept the respect of the fans and his players
 
Yes Clawson is a natural leader and he recruits good leaders for his team. Therefore there is strong leadership and direction at levels of the football program. This is in spite of Wellman. Neither Wellman nor Hatch are leaders and our school will not be great until both are gone. Manning really is irrelevant ... he doesn’t have the intelligence to matter, he is just in the way.
 
PhDeac said:
It’s becoming clearer that Wellman mentioned his vision to prospective job candidates.
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Makes sense. That would be the only reason good coaches would not have wanted to coach at Wake Forest.

Wellman truly is a miserable human being whose name should not be spoken in polite company.
 
Good coaches don’t want to be told to have a crystal ball. Recruit good players. Coach them for as long as you can. It’s a simple formula.
 
ChrisL68 said:
even when losing, there was a sense of organization and cohesion in clawson's program.
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I always have gotten the impression that Clawson knows precisely what needs to be done to be successful. At times, that means he's hard-headed and doesn't waiver from his system. But, at least he HAS A SYSTEM. We always seem to be organized as a team. Doesn't always guarantee a win but at least we're competitive in almost every game.

With DM, I get the impression he has little to no clue what's required, from a coaching perspective, to win at an elite level such as the ACC.
 
https://mytakeonwhatever.com/author/mytakeonwhatever13/

"The Wake job was far more attractive to prospective candidates in 2010 than it was four disastrous years later. If Wake’s 51-76 record under Redacted hadn’t inspired the most acrimonious fan revolt of my long career as a sportswriter, then Wellman might have been able to land a more proven commodity than a former All-American with a scant two years experience as a college head coach."
 
coredeac said:
I always have gotten the impression that Clawson knows precisely what needs to be done to be successful. At times, that means he's hard-headed and doesn't waiver from his system. But, at least he HAS A SYSTEM. We always seem to be organized as a team. Doesn't always guarantee a win but at least we're competitive in almost every game.

With DM, I get the impression he has little to no clue what's required, from a coaching perspective, to win at an elite level such as the ACC.
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This is fundamentally what makes Clawson an effective leader, and this is the foundation of coaching any sport, at any level. Clawson proves that it can exist under Wellman's watch, even if it's in spite of his influence. This gives hope that with a strong-willed, determined, and organized coach at the helm, the hoops program can return to relevance even while Wellman is around. Doesn't seem like that big of an ask for the next guy up.
 
suck my deac said:
This is fundamentally what makes Clawson an effective leader, and this is the foundation of coaching any sport, at any level. Clawson proves that it can exist under Wellman's watch, even if it's in spite of his influence. This gives hope that with a strong-willed, determined, and organized coach at the helm, the hoops program can return to relevance even while Wellman is around. Doesn't seem like that big of an ask for the next guy up.
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The bigger and more important issues are will a guy like that want to come to Wake given the circumstances thete now, can Wellman find such a guy, and will he hire him.
 
WFU71 said:
https://mytakeonwhatever.com/author/mytakeonwhatever13/

"The Wake job was far more attractive to prospective candidates in 2010 than it was four disastrous years later. If Wake’s 51-76 record under Redacted hadn’t inspired the most acrimonious fan revolt of my long career as a sportswriter, then Wellman might have been able to land a more proven commodity than a former All-American with a scant two years experience as a college head coach."
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So, will our ongoing fan revolt torpedo any chance to get a proven commodity the next time around? That's a frightening prospect.
 
Deaconblue said:
The bigger and more important issues are will a guy like that want to come to Wake given the circumstances thete now, can Wellman find such a guy, and will he hire him.
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Yeah these are the truly open questions. Will a guy like that want to come to coach at Wake? I have to believe the answer can still be yes. Can Wellman find and hire such a candidate? Very few people left who have confidence that he can or will. But if he uses the same criteria he used for the Clawson hire as a guide that would certainly be a start.
 
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