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The demise of Wake Forest Basketball

deac87 said:
Yes Clawson is a natural leader and he recruits good leaders for his team. Therefore there is strong leadership and direction at levels of the football program. This is in spite of Wellman. Neither Wellman nor Hatch are leaders and our school will not be great until both are gone. Manning really is irrelevant ... he doesn’t have the intelligence to matter, he is just in the way.
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This is an amazing post. Just to be clear:

1) Clawson natural leader
2) Wellman not a leader
3) Hatch not a leader
4) Manning irrelevant and not intelligent enough to matter

you forgot:

5) Board of Trustees, not composed of leaders
 
wakephan09 said:
This is an amazing post. Just to be clear:

1) Clawson natural leader
2) Wellman not a leader
3) Hatch not a leader
4) Manning irrelevant and not intelligent enough to matter

you forgot:

5) Board of Trustees, not composed of leaders
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6). Board of Trustees running up huge food, bar and hotel fees while in town.
 
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but i feel like there were reports that ronnie did not lead the Clawson effort.
 
tagsfan said:
So, will our ongoing fan revolt torpedo any chance to get a proven commodity the next time around? That's a frightening prospect.
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The only reason there ever was a fan revolt was all the lies and tone deafness from the administration. If anyone had the slightest confidence that Wellman could or would rectify his screw ups, the fan base would not be so up in arms. There is still no confidence.

Wellman is still always behind the curve.
 
deaconson said:
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but i feel like there were reports that ronnie did not lead the Clawson effort.
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This is the kind of twisted logic that undermines legitimate arguments against Manning. Wellman is the boss, period. If you're going to criticize him for one coaching hire you have to credit him for the successful ones. Even if one of his Buddies led the recruitment.
 
wakephan09 said:
This is the kind of twisted logic that undermines legitimate arguments against Manning. Wellman is the boss, period. If you're going to criticize him for one coaching hire you have to credit him for the successful ones. Even if one of his Buddies led the recruitment.
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This was kind of my original point. For as much as we all (rightfully) despise and blame Wellman for his role in torching our flagship program, he isn't actively thwarting Clawson from having success in the football program. Clawson runs that ship the was he deems fit and it doesn't appear subject to Wellman's micromanagement, at least from the outside looking in. This approach could, in theory, be replicated in the hoops program with a competent coach who brings his plan to execute and is given the freedom to do so.

There's this fear among the fanbase that any Wellman-hired coach is going to certainly be incompetent. The redacted and DM hires have validated this fear, but the Clawson hire goes against it. I want to believe that, like Clawson, a successful hoops coach CAN exist under a Wellman-led AD, and that we just haven't hired the right candidates (at all).
 
Wellman has hired two competent football coaches and not micromanaged them, so there's no fear there. We certainly have reason to fear it in basketball.
 
PhDeac said:
Wellman has hired two competent football coaches and not micromanaged them, so there's no fear there. We certainly have reason to fear it in basketball.
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What evidence is there of Wellman micromanaging any of our basketball coaches? Or the coaches of any other wake sport for that matter?

People were angry, probably justifiably, for the way he took over all of [Redacted]'s press conferences and covered for his incompetence in a way fans thought was patronizing, but I don't think an athletic director protecting his coaches from outside scrutiny is particularly unusual (or even necessarily worth the kind of criticism he received).
 
PhDeac said:
Wellman has hired two competent football coaches and not micromanaged them, so there's no fear there. We certainly have reason to fear it in basketball.
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Definitely feeling the fear myself as we move toward the inevitable replacement of DM and the next hire. Though Wellman bizarrely micromanaged the hoops program during the redacted years, it does seem he has been more hands off with DM. DM simply isn't the right fit at WFU for many reasons, mainly leadership style, personality, passion to win, in game coaching, adaptability, etc, etc. I'm simply holding out hope that even if we have to get lucky and stumble into the right hire next, that that coach will have the freedom to find success in his own way without the toxicity of Wellman's leadership rolling downhill. And I'm using Clawson as an example to support this hope. Unfortunately, it feels like way too much it riding on who we hire next.
 
wakephan09 said:
What evidence is there of Wellman micromanaging any of our basketball coaches? Or the coaches of any other wake sport for that matter?

People were angry, probably justifiably, for the way he took over all of [Redacted]'s press conferences and covered for his incompetence in a way fans thought was patronizing, but I don't think an athletic director protecting his coaches from outside scrutiny is particularly unusual (or even necessarily worth the kind of criticism he received).
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Maybe micromanagement isn't exactly the right word, but Wellman did seem strangely intertwined with redacted. The "oh heaven's yes" level of support in light of glaring flaws in the way the program was being led just felt irrational and wrong. As was mentioned earlier, it felt like they were actively bs'ing the fanbase. Wellman's level of involvement has certainly died down with DM, who has had a similar overall record. That's at least how I was defining micromanagement.
 
wakephan09 said:
What evidence is there of Wellman micromanaging any of our basketball coaches? Or the coaches of any other wake sport for that matter?

People were angry, probably justifiably, for the way he took over all of [Redacted]'s press conferences and covered for his incompetence in a way fans thought was patronizing, but I don't think an athletic director protecting his coaches from outside scrutiny is particularly unusual (or even necessarily worth the kind of criticism he received).
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I believe there's strong evidence Wellman tried to dictate basketball recruiting philosophy as well as culture bs etc with Dino and later hiring new coaches. Seems like he has tried to interfere with assistants too. I can't imagine that flying with claw or a competent basketball coach. Hell even Dino told wellman to pound sand.
 
suck my deac said:
Maybe micromanagement isn't exactly the right word, but Wellman did seem strangely intertwined with redacted. The "oh heaven's yes" level of support in light of glaring flaws in the way the program was being led just felt irrational and wrong. As was mentioned earlier, it felt like they were actively bs'ing the fanbase. Wellman's level of involvement has certainly died down with DM, who has had a similar overall record. That's at least how I was defining micromanagement.
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I think you're right that Wellman's behavior and BSing during the [Redacted] years should probably be considered patronizing and uncool, but like I said I feel like protecting the coach from criticism is the athletic director's job. If [Redacted] hadn't have been such a shitty coach (and, perhaps much more importantly, a shitty communicator) we probably wouldn't have seen so much bullshit propaganda from the Department. The fact that DM has authority and cachet and a reputation has meant that the AD can largely stay out of it.

Turd Ferguson said:
I believe there's strong evidence Wellman tried to dictate basketball recruiting philosophy as well as culture bs etc with Dino and later hiring new coaches. Seems like he has tried to interfere with assistants too. I can't imagine that flying with claw or a competent basketball coach. Hell even Dino told wellman to pound sand.
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This is a much stronger argument, and it *does* seem like Wellman did try to manage the basketball program's recruiting strategy during the Dino times. It didn't work primarily because the landscape of college basketball changed a lot in the subsequent years. And it is a fact that DM is recruiting one-and-done high school players meaning one of the following things is true: that either Wellman has let DM dictate his own recruiting strategies (i.e. *not* micromanaging); or Wellman has changed his opinion on one-and-done players for whatever reason (i.e. not stubborn/arrogant in the way he's often accused). There could be other possibilities, of course, but these are the two most obvious.

The assistant coaches thing is another fair point I'd forgotten about. Is there evidence he did this elsewhere? Wouldn't Elrod be an example of the same practice as Rusty and Childress?
 
wakephan09 said:
I think you're right that Wellman's behavior and BSing during the [Redacted] years should probably be considered patronizing and uncool, but like I said I feel like protecting the coach from criticism is the athletic director's job. If [Redacted] hadn't have been such a shitty coach (and, perhaps much more importantly, a shitty communicator) we probably wouldn't have seen so much bullshit propaganda from the Department. The fact that DM has authority and cachet and a reputation has meant that the AD can largely stay out of it.



This is a much stronger argument, and it *does* seem like Wellman did try to manage the basketball program's recruiting strategy during the Dino times. It didn't work primarily because the landscape of college basketball changed a lot in the subsequent years. And it is a fact that DM is recruiting one-and-done high school players meaning one of the following things is true: that either Wellman has let DM dictate his own recruiting strategies (i.e. *not* micromanaging); or Wellman has changed his opinion on one-and-done players for whatever reason (i.e. not stubborn/arrogant in the way he's often accused). There could be other possibilities, of course, but these are the two most obvious.

The assistant coaches thing is another fair point I'd forgotten about. Is there evidence he did this elsewhere? Wouldn't Elrod be an example of the same practice as Rusty and Childress?
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No. Basic research would bear that out.
 
Grobe hired Elrod as a grad assistant first. He moved up over time.

That makes more sense than a incoming basketball coach with no formal Wake ties hiring two former players as full time assistants despite having no college coaching experience.
 
Holding over one or two coaches from the previous is not that rare in FB. Maintains a little continuity for the players. Elrod was not Clawson's choice for that and got pissed about it even though Wake took care of him financially with the radio and endowment work.
 
I'm not talking about Elrod's hiring as a coach, I'm talking about his retention as our color guy under a new coaching staff. Which was not Clawson's call, was it? I was speculating that that was an example of Wellman imposing his will on the football program despite the desires of the head coach.

And i write up a long post and that's your only response? How about something substantive?
 
wakephan09 said:
I'm not talking about Elrod's hiring as a coach, I'm talking about his retention as our color guy under a new coaching staff. Which was not Clawson's call, was it? I was speculating that that was an example of Wellman imposing his will on the football program despite the desires of the head coach.

And i write up a long post and that's your only response? How about something substantive?
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Your original post was not exactly clear as to which of Elrod's hiring you were referring to. After Clawson let him go as a coach, Elrod was hired by IMG Sports to do color commentary. IMG is a contractor to Wake. Elrod was no longer directly employed by Wake. The circumstances were not like Bz, Rusty and Chill.
 
wakephan09 said:
I'm not talking about Elrod's hiring as a coach, I'm talking about his retention as our color guy under a new coaching staff. Which was not Clawson's call, was it? I was speculating that that was an example of Wellman imposing his will on the football program despite the desires of the head coach.

And i write up a long post and that's your only response? How about something substantive?
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How often does the football coach decide who the radio color guy is?
 
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