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Jerusalem Embassy Opening Going Well

RJKarl said:
The conflict has been around for 70 years, but these events were caused by moving the embassy and by having the opening on these dates. Trump knows nothing, but Bibi knows better.

Re: Other POTUS, they understood the actual moving of the embassy would only happen AFTER there was peace. Without a two state solution, there will never be peace.
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I actually believe the move emboldened Hamas to craft the narrative it wants in front of more cameras to get more sympathy from people like you. Do you ever contemplate the fact that Hamas is a terrorist group? Do you ever sit back and think "hey, maybe this group deserves more scrutiny?"

Let's get beyond using human shields, women and children when they attack Israel, or tunneling into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis.

Let's just look at these violent protests that have been going on for weeks. Tires burning to create smoke screens, Molotov cocktails being thrown, kites rigged with explosives, etc. Did the Israeli military provide these materials and say "we dare you" or something similar? Did they rush the border thinking "the Israeli military is letting us in to do as we please?" Families with kids have been casualties, why the hell are they there other than for the purposes of propaganda? So many questions, but the point you fail to understand is that there is responsibility on both sides.

Re: point 2, which side concedes in your dream scenario and when would it have happened? Pretty sure the Palestinians still wants it all. How do you negotiate with that, especially with Hamas in power. Palestine has the Gaza Strip and West Bank, not saying it's ideal and I'm not even sure if they control all of it completely, but it's something. Please lay out your plan for a 2-state solution that works because I'd love to read it.

More to the point, which side is our only true ally in the region on and does that even matter to you?
 
Nobodies hands are remotely clean in this affair.

We just emboldened the extremists on one side, (and the holy roller base in this country who think jews are the chosen people and this would get us closer to end times) and incited violence.
 
Both sides are inciting violence from the other and America acts as a catalyst for both sides - particularly with the decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem. The major issue in the region regarding the "inciting violence" is the massive power imbalance between Israel and Palestine. You don't even have to look much farther back than the last few days to see this imbalance: 50+ Palestinians have died and I have not seen any reports of Israeli deaths.
 
Biggus Deacus said:
I actually believe the move emboldened Hamas to craft the narrative it wants in front of more cameras to get more sympathy from people like you. Do you ever contemplate the fact that Hamas is a terrorist group? Do you ever sit back and think "hey, maybe this group deserves more scrutiny?"

Let's get beyond using human shields, women and children when they attack Israel, or tunneling into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis.

Let's just look at these violent protests that have been going on for weeks. Tires burning to create smoke screens, Molotov cocktails being thrown, kites rigged with explosives, etc. Did the Israeli military provide these materials and say "we dare you" or something similar? Did they rush the border thinking "the Israeli military is letting us in to do as we please?" Families with kids have been casualties, why the hell are they there other than for the purposes of propaganda? So many questions, but the point you fail to understand is that there is responsibility on both sides.

Re: point 2, which side concedes in your dream scenario and when would it have happened? Pretty sure the Palestinians still wants it all. How do you negotiate with that, especially with Hamas in power. Palestine has the Gaza Strip and West Bank, not saying it's ideal and I'm not even sure if they control all of it completely, but it's something. Please lay out your plan for a 2-state solution that works because I'd love to read it.

More to the point, which side is our only true ally in the region on and does that even matter to you?
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What an ignorant post! As an American Jew, of course I understand who our ally is. Hamas is a despicable terrorist organization that Donald Trump STRENGTHENED by his his moronic actions. He created sympathy around the world fore them. He and Bibi created countless more terrorists from the families of those injured and killed as well from other non-committed Muslims in the region that didn't exist ten days ago.

My SIDE is for a safe secure Israel. The ONLY way this happens is having a two state solution with a secure Palestinian state.

There was NO reason to move the embassy. It was even more moronic than your post to do so at this time due the anniversary of the founding of Israel and the Palestinian "holiday" about being displaced.

If you had paid ANY attention to these boards over the past quarter of century, you'd realize how imbecilic your post and the concept that Israel doesn't matter to me is.
 
RJKarl said:
What an ignorant post! As an American Jew, of course I understand who our ally is. Hamas is a despicable terrorist organization that Donald Trump STRENGTHENED by his his moronic actions. He created sympathy around the world fore them. He and Bibi created countless more terrorists from the families of those injured and killed as well from other non-committed Muslims in the region that didn't exist ten days ago.

My SIDE is for a safe secure Israel. The ONLY way this happens is having a two state solution with a secure Palestinian state.

There was NO reason to move the embassy. It was even more moronic than your post to do so at this time due the anniversary of the founding of Israel and the Palestinian "holiday" about being displaced.

If you had paid ANY attention to these boards over the past quarter of century, you'd realize how imbecilic your post and the concept that Israel doesn't matter to me is.
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I apologize if I offended you. Nonetheless, Hamas has been creating sympathy around the world by firing rockets at Israel from areas using human shields before these protests, hoping for retalliation and civilian casualties that they could broadcast to the world. I could go on and on about this, but for our purposes here, it doesn't matter.

Also, I recall reading an article about UN stats from late April that said these types of protests started around March 30th, not sure why you talk in terms of ten days or whatever. And, I don't recall stating that it had to take place on an exact day. Any other day in the near future would have sufficed.

One thing we agree about is that we'd like to see a peaceful 2 state solution. I have never seen it heading in that direction in my life, and I didn't see it heading that way at all before the move was announced.

We've been kicking the can down the road for over 20 years and nothing remotely close to a peaceful 2 state solution has been achieved in 70. We just disagree here. I approve of the move, you don't. I'm not changing you're mind and you're not changing mine. Again, I apologize if I offended you.
 
SC DEAC said:
Every other president realized that scoring a few cheap political points with the embassy change is not worth the inevitable loss of life and the lighting of the wick on that powder keg region. Then Trump happened and all he realized was , "cheap political points? Where do I get them?"
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Cheap political points and millions in campaign donations from Sheldon Adelson.
 
 
The demonstrations were behind an electrocuted fence and far away. There was absolutely no reason to fire live rounds into the protest. There would have been much, much smaller and infinitely less volatile protests had Trump not moved the embassy to Jerusalem.

During the Cold War, we talked tough many times. Previous POTUS talked about moving the embassy to Jerusalem knowing they would not do it until the peace process was at its end and the status of the rest of Jerusalem had been negotiated. Every other POTUS since at least 1967, every other Secretary of State, every Secretary of Defense and every CIA Director knew actually moving the embassy would cause the peace process to end and that violence would erupt.

Trump doesn't give a fuck. Partially because he's a lazy, ignorant moron who refuses to read anything and as importantly a narcissistic idiot who wants to be in the public eye at all times.

Those people would be alive today if not for Trump's self-indulgent idiocy and Bibi's complicity. Until Trump is out of office, no one in the Arab world will the United States as an honest broker. More people will die because of Trump's actions than would have died if he hadn't acted so ignorantly and irresponsibly.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
...The major issue in the region regarding the "inciting violence" is the massive power imbalance between Israel and Palestine. You don't even have to look much farther back than the last few days to see this imbalance: 50+ Palestinians have died and I have not seen any reports of Israeli deaths.
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There is a power imbalance, but Hamas could send a bunch of soldiers armed to the teeth to the front lines to create a lot of Israeli casualties. They haven't because they employ methods of violent protesting that create the maximum appearance of oppression and desperation.

Burning tires to create smoke screens, throwing rocks, Molotov cocktails, kites rigged with explosives, etc. They have real smoke grenades, guns and rockets, they just aren't using them.

Also, why are they not peacefully protesting? Why violent protests? Why are they sending families and children into a violent protests? To maximize Paestinian casualties, minimize Israeli casualties and gain worldwide sympathy.
 
wait you think they're protesting violently to create more casualties for themselves?
 
Biggus Deacus said:
There is a power imbalance, but Hamas could send a bunch of soldiers armed to the teeth to the front lines to create a lot of Israeli casualties. They haven't because they employ methods of violent protesting that create the maximum appearance of oppression and desperation.

Burning tires to create smoke screens, throwing rocks, Molotov cocktails, kites rigged with explosives, etc. They have real smoke grenades, guns and rockets, they just aren't using them.

Also, why are they not peacefully protesting? Why violent protests? Why are they sending families and children into a violent protests? To maximize Paestinian casualties, minimize Israeli casualties and gain worldwide sympathy.
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It didn't happen. I could have had genetics that made me 6'10, with 45" hops, 42' jumper range, a 110 mph fastball, a 15" dick, able write songs like a combination of Stevie Wonder, Pete Townshend and Bruce Springsteen, but I don't have those genetics. I could have, but I don't.

You repeatedly bring up what MIGHT happen to justify your positions rather that what ACTUALLY happened. You said the same thing about the Iran deal. With ZERO current evidence and massive amounts of evidence to the contrary, you said Iran "could be" cheating. Now, you come up with hypothetical excuses about the Trump/Bibi attacks on Palestinians who put no Israeli lives in danger this week.

These types of concepts are totally dishonest.

EDIT: BTW, I have been routinely lambasted for saying I support wiping out Hamas bomb locations by Israeli forces. I've said if someone allows Hamas to use their home to build or shoot rockets that those homes should leveled. This didn't happen this week. The Israelis were 100000% wrong this week.
 
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Biggus Deacus said:
There is a power imbalance, but Hamas could send a bunch of soldiers armed to the teeth to the front lines to create a lot of Israeli casualties. They haven't because they employ methods of violent protesting that create the maximum appearance of oppression and desperation.

Burning tires to create smoke screens, throwing rocks, Molotov cocktails, kites rigged with explosives, etc. They have real smoke grenades, guns and rockets, they just aren't using them.

Also, why are they not peacefully protesting? Why violent protests? Why are they sending families and children into a violent protests? To maximize Paestinian casualties, minimize Israeli casualties and gain worldwide sympathy.
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The vast majority of Palestinians ARE protesting peacefully.

I also don't think it's particularly accurate to say that Hamas could send a bunch of soldiers to the front lines to make a big difference in the power imbalance provided Israel's financial support from the West ($38 BILLION from America over ten years specifically for military aid), Israel's massive intelligence network, and Israel's armed forces. Sure, it might make some difference but Hamas is never ever going to win a war against Israel.
 
sailordeac said:
What has violence gotten the Palestinians?
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Yeah I'm sure that Israel, a state created and expanded in its current form through violence, would be willing to entertain meaningful talks about sharing Jerusalem and creating a recognized Palestinian state if Palestine just asked nicely.
 
BarcaDeac said:
wait you think they're protesting violently to create more casualties for themselves?
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I think the methods of violent protesting being employed pretty much guarantees a severe imbalance of casualties on one side versus the other. I think any violent protest presumes that there will be one or more casualties. Hell, peaceful protests have yielded casuaties in the past.
 
The bottom line regarding the Arab-Israeli conflicts is that each "side's" (for lack of a better term) perspective is too far removed from the other. I believe both sides have valid grievances but at the end of the day each respective side wants to stake its claim to the same land which simply can't happen.

Israel believes that this battle isn't simply about land but that it's an existential crisis for their people and a microcosm of the Jewish struggle as a whole. The current state is surrounded in the Middle East by Arab nations, many of which do actually want to remove Israel from the map.

Palestine believes that they've been consistently screwed by not only Israel, but the international community, dating back at least 75 years over who would control this land. The current result for Palestine is that they do not have much land, aren't generally recognized as a nation-state by the greater international community, and feel that Israel is not respecting the little land that Palestine currently holds (see settlements, bombardments of Gaza, and the list goes on).

Both sides want the same land and no amount of diplomacy is going to resolve this tension. This battle has raged for years, decades, centuries, millennia, and both sides will continue to forge ahead meaninglessly with no hope for a permanent resolution.
 
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i love that the israeli apologists are just flabbergasted that asymmetrical warfare is a thing like it was just invented.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
The vast majority of Palestinians ARE protesting peacefully.

I also don't think it's particularly accurate to say that Hamas could send a bunch of soldiers to the front lines to make a big difference in the power imbalance provided Israel's financial support from the West ($38 BILLION from America over ten years specifically for military aid), Israel's massive intelligence network, and Israel's armed forces. Sure, it might make some difference but Hamas is never ever going to win a war against Israel.
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Sorry, I wasn't being clear I guess. I meant that they have the weaponry to make the number of casuaties on both sides more even but are not using that weaponry. I'm not saying it would be a good idea to do so or anything of the sort, just saying they could.

I was not saying that a substantial power imbalance doesn't exist, because it obviously does.

ETA: regarding peaceful protesters, there's like 35-40,000 people protesting. That's difficult to manage if everybody was protesting peacefully.
 
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