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Thread: Family Separation at the Border: US citizens are now being detained

  1. #341
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    Family Separation at the Border: UN & Laura Bush condemn policy

    Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
    Morality is an ineffective way to make they case against this policy that Trump has implemented. Moral codes are fluid and can be adjust to meet societal or individual desires. The effective argument is to perhaps appeal to people's empathy and to think about their own children or how they would feel if they were separated from the parents when young, but the more effective argument here is to consider the probability of this strategy actually having any effect on over all illegal immigration rates, which it won't in any sustained to measurable way.

    As for the bolded...what does this mean? are you asserting that Democrats do not see illegal immigration as a problem?
    Agree with your first paragraph. That is my exact point.

    2nd paragraph - yes, obviously not 100% but in large part I feel the Democratic Party is just fine with status quo. Obviously #samplesize, but I think an unscientific poll of the democrats on this board would affirm that opinion.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangor View Post
    Iím not for either abortion or what is going on. But you make my point perfectly. You have defined morality how you see fit...one that fits your worldview. That is the M.O. of every other human being. Just calling some immoral is never going to be a convincing argument.

    Abortion is an issue that is one side against another. It is mostly broken down by political/religious ideologies. People from all sides oppose taking totally children from their parents. It's not right vs. left. It's not religion vs. non-believers or different believers. This is so morally reprehensible to nearly everyone that it has united people who are historically on opposite sides on almost every issue.

    You have to provide a better path to accomplish the goal. The problem here is immense. First democrats donít feel there is a problem. They are in large part pretty much fine with status quo. So solving the problem is a non starter.

    Solutions have been offered. The extreme right has killed them all. It's absolutely ludicrous and totally inaccurate to say "democrats don't feel there is a problem". This is just a completley FALSE statement. For decades, Dems have made proposals to fix the problem. Dems, W, McCain and other Republicans tried to work together to come up with a solution, but the extremists blocked them. Obama, with Rubio and others on both sides, drafted a comprehensive immigration bill. It was killed by McConnell and the other obstructionists.

    Your premise is historically and factually inaccurate. It shows a mindset that permeates this country. A mindset that is false and divisive.


    Secondly even if someone agrees that there is a problem, the solution is so complex that it makes it difficult to approach. So Instead we have a caveman approach of Trump because no one is offering better solutions. Trump is getting everyone to look at the shiny object which is something he does very well. Meanwhile, his base (who feels that illegal immigration is a problem and are glad someone is doing SOMETHING) is encouraged and his poll numbers rise.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    Just because someone believes there is a problem doesn't there actual is a problem. It definitely doesn't mean we need to take drastic measures to find a solution. That's what our nation has done to the "Indian problem," the "slave problem," the "freed slave problem," the "Chinese problem," the "Japanese problem," and the "Negro problem."
    This is a great post.

  4. #344
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    It won't let me edit..It should say "totally innocent children"

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangor View Post
    Iím not for either abortion or what is going on. But you make my point perfectly. You have defined morality how you see fit...one that fits your worldview. That is the M.O. of every other human being. Just calling some immoral is never going to be a convincing argument.
    Let me get this straight - if liberals consider abortion a subjective political issue, than Republicans consider other types of evil politically subjective. Thats a terrible fucking rationale to apologize for fascists. If we disagree on abortion than there is no good or bad, no right and wrong.
    Draxx them sklounst

  6. #346
    There are some things that everyone in society agrees on that are immoral and horrible, things happening to children is pretty up there as a universal agreement until something like this becomes political but maybe Birdman is right you need to appeal to empathy. So imagine this scenario.

    A mother of two lives with her abusive husband, one night he comes home drunk and starts beating her, as he often does, she knows if this keeps up he will kill her. She escapes from him, grabbing the two kids, and runs to the car and speeds off before he can follow her. She is pulled over by the police for driving erratically and without a license as she forgot it as she fled. A misdemeanor offense she is arrested and her two kids are pulled from her and put in a child camp.

    The reason why empathy doesnít work for the people that support trumps policy is because for those people the above story only matters if the children are white. They as trump supporters follow his rhetoric of its an infestation by animals, they dehumanize because they have to as treating humans this way, especially children is universally bad!

  7. #347
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    To be fair, if it was an abused dog that ran away and was about to be euthanized at the pound, theyíd be more sympathetic.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangor View Post
    You make my point PH. I agree completely. Hence no solution offered from people who share your POV.

    But the problem is that the previous two democrats presidents have both stated that there is a problem and then not done anything about it. Empty promises create discontent. Discontent with empty promises leads to leaders like Trump. So now in large part because of the failure of Washington the past 3 decades to address this issue (that every president has acknowledged to be a problem) we have the one person who doesnít mind being hated enacting his plan. It should be no surprise that it isnít a very wise or compassionate plan.
    This is incorrect. Clinton entered into NAFTA on the theory that improving the Mexican economy would reduce the pressure for migrants to move northward and Janet Reno presided over a significant increase in border patrol and enforcement in border cities like El Paso and San Diego all with the intent of driving the migrants into the Sonora Desert, to try and deter illegal immigration. It did not work but they tried to do something about it.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    There are some things that everyone in society agrees on that are immoral and horrible, things happening to children is pretty up there as a universal agreement until something like this becomes political but maybe Birdman is right you need to appeal to empathy. So imagine this scenario.

    A mother of two lives with her abusive husband, one night he comes home drunk and starts beating her, as he often does, she knows if this keeps up he will kill her. She escapes from him, grabbing the two kids, and runs to the car and speeds off before he can follow her. She is pulled over by the police for driving erratically and without a license as she forgot it as she fled. A misdemeanor offense she is arrested and her two kids are pulled from her and put in a child camp.

    The reason why empathy doesnít work for the people that support trumps policy is because for those people the above story only matters if the children are white. They as trump supporters follow his rhetoric of its an infestation by animals, they dehumanize because they have to as treating humans this way, especially children is universally bad!
    There are recurrent things, like child sexual abuse, that seem to be consistently "immoral", but there are also plenty of historical examples of people warping moral codes to fit a political agenda. We are actually seeing right now an attempt to normalize and eliminate the stigma of institutionalized child psychological abuse to justify immigration deterrence policies and some portion of the American public are buying into it. Morals are fluid.

  10. #350
    Inventing bogeymen and exaggerating smaller issues into huge crises is the modus operandi of the modern GOP, everyone knows that. Keep the eyes focused on illegal immigrants and the queers and the murder rate in Chicago and blame all that for the problems while they peel the last bit of wealth out of the middle class.

    You people are fucking stupid buying into the whole illegal immigration "crisis." The ruling class is laughing their asses off at you, you know that right?

  11. #351
    Could someone please tell me what is the difference between Obama's policy and Sessions/Trump "Zero Tolerance Policy".

    This all seems super fucked up, we are becoming terrible people because political rhetoric created a problem that wasn't there to begin with, and that behavior is being justified by radicalized tribal politics. Mexican immigration is not what is wrong with this country, and granting 100,000 people amnesty is the right thing to do compared to ripping children from their parents. Seems so clear cut.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by WakeandBake View Post
    Inventing bogeymen and exaggerating smaller issues into huge crises is the modus operandi of the modern GOP, everyone knows that. Keep the eyes focused on illegal immigrants and the queers and the murder rate in Chicago and blame all that for the problems while they peel the last bit of wealth out of the middle class.

    You people are fucking stupid buying into the whole illegal immigration "crisis." The ruling class is laughing their asses off at you, you know that right?
    I might be living in an Austin bubble but it seems like the middle class is doing pretty great right now.
    Last edited by WFcatamount22; 06-19-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  13. #353
    For those who support strict immigration measures and border patrolling, what is the rationale for splitting kids from their parents during detention?

  14. #354
    They're getting a particularly deep laugh out of the Catamounts of the world.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangor View Post
    Agree with your first paragraph. That is my exact point.

    2nd paragraph - yes, obviously not 100% but in large part I feel the Democratic Party is just fine with status quo. Obviously #samplesize, but I think an unscientific poll of the democrats on this board would affirm that opinion.
    The central premise of both parties' immigration policies for the last three decades has been deterrence. The only real difference between the two parties here has been the level of compassion for the individual people that attempt to migrate and the types of deterrence they implement. Clinton created the policy of forcing immigrants to cross the dangerous Sonora desert but also entered into NAFTA which was in part sold to the public as a way to improve the Mexican economy so that northward migration would be less necessary; Obama actually stepped up deportation from the Bush administration and stepped up border enforcement, but he also created DACA in a compassionate attempt to help some of the people already here. It is pretty disingenuous to assert that democrats have done nothing to address this problem, none of it worked, but they tried. None of it worked because, deterrence is a flawed premise to start with. I've spent some time in Nicaragua over the last two years and the poverty is sobering once you get outside the compound walls of the 4 star Central American resort hotels. It's like Ireland in the mid 1800's level poverty and people are willing to risk a lot to get away from it. Family separation as a deterrent won't work either.

  16. #356
    NAFTA did boost Mexico's economy and probably had some impact on decreasing Mexican immigration to the US. The population of undocumented Mexicans has decreased by about a million from peak. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...n-from-mexico/ What we're seeing now is proportionately less economic migration from Mexico and more people fleeing failed states in Central America.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by WakeandBake View Post
    They're getting a particularly deep laugh out of the Catamounts of the world.
    Who is "they" in this scenario?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by WFcatamount22 View Post
    Could someone please tell me what is the difference between Obama's policy and Sessions/Trump "Zero Tolerance Policy".

    This all seems super fucked up, we are becoming terrible people because political rhetoric created a problem that wasn't there to begin with, and that behavior is being justified by radicalized tribal politics. Mexican immigration is not what is wrong with this country, and granting 100,000 people amnesty is the right thing to do compared to ripping children from their parents. Seems so clear cut.
    Anyone who crosses into the US seeking asylum between authorized ports of entry (whether those ports are actually accessible is a different issue) is technically committing a misdemeanor even if they immediately turn themselves in to authorities and request asylum. Prior to Trump, typically one of two things would happen to those families. They would either be set up with an immigration hearing and released (this is the "catch and release" policy that the GOP hates) or they would be placed together as a family in an immigrant detention center while they waited to see a judge. The new Trump "zero tolerance" policy means all of these adults are immediately prosecuted and thrown in jail for this misdemeanor, and their kids are re-classified as unaccompanied minors and put into camps.

    This is separate from people who are presented themselves legally at ports of entry and STILL being separated from their kids, which also seems to be happening, but on a much smaller scale.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon923 View Post
    NAFTA did boost Mexico's economy and probably had some impact on decreasing Mexican immigration to the US. The population of undocumented Mexicans has decreased by about a million from peak. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...n-from-mexico/ What we're seeing now is proportionately less economic migration from Mexico and more people fleeing failed states in Central America.
    Hmm...who intervened on behalf of strongman governments in Central America over the past 50ish years?

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon923 View Post
    NAFTA did boost Mexico's economy and probably had some impact on decreasing Mexican immigration to the US. The population of undocumented Mexicans has decreased by about a million from peak. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...n-from-mexico/ What we're seeing now is proportionately less economic migration from Mexico and more people fleeing failed states in Central America.
    So, a Democratic President not only tried to do something about immigration, he was actually successful too. It might be a model to follow, work towards establishing stability and economic opportunity in Central America and immigration might decline.

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