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Doral Moore joining Washington Wizards summer league team

High NCAA D1 basketball is one of the premier NBA developmental leagues. Just look at where the bulk of NBA players played prior to NBA.

What we know they gave up: $60k+ in scholarship and stipend. Opportunity to play with and against NBA bound competition. Coaching by former NBA players. Television appearances where friends and family can watch easily. Lots of opportunity to be seen by NBA scouts.

What they get as of now: Playing BB without worrying about college classes and work. Unknown $ salary. Limited to no appearances on US TV. Unlikely to have coaches with NBA experience. Unlikely to be playing with or against future NBA players.
 
The fact scooter thinks they HAVE to come back to Wake to finish a bachelor’s degree shows how far out of touch he is on this.

Where did I say they have to come back to Wake to finish their degree? What I have said is that a degree from Wake Forest is quite valuable. I have also said it is more difficult than you might think to go back and finish a degree later - with life getting in the way. I did mention that it would be expensive, perhaps implying finishing at Wake. I do think finishing at Wake and getting a Wake degree is more valuable than finishing at your random local state school - though that would be less expensive.

Y'all can keep telling yourselves that I am out of touch - that doesn't make it true.

Look - we have beaten this horse to death many times. Y'all are free to disagree with me and clearly many of you do. But, that doesn't mean my opinion is stupid or that I am some old, senile white guy yelling at clouds. Despite what y'all might think, older folks have actually seen some things and know some stuff. When you reach my age you will realize that I am not that old anyway.

I just think that one year is nothing - a blink of an eye. And in one year they could have their Wake degree while getting it paid for and taking advantage of all the academic support they have while on scholarship. At the same time they would be working on their game. Moore, especially, is on a trajectory of rapidly improving skills. Crawford had somewhat of a down year last year and would have the chance to show that was an anomaly. So they come out next year in no worse a position, basketball-wise, and possibly a better position. Off the court they now have their degree and don't have to worry about coming back to get it later (wherever they choose to do that).

Whatever. I just wish y'all could argue with me without making it personal - saying I am out of touch, old, gross, etc. I just don't see why it is necessary.
 
Will be difficult to put together about 70k for the last year of your education at Wake after playing five years abroad and only saving probably that much. Maybe they can take some classes online or have them transfer credits in to Wake? My guess is that they have some required coursework at Wake still to get a degree.

All is predicated if they plan on getting a degree. Who knows? It doesn't make financial sense to me but it is their life.
 
Unless you're competing for very specific jobs at accounting, investment, etc firms that recruit Wake degrees or trying to get into a graduate program, a Wake degree isn't really "worth" anything more in the job market at this point. It may be worth more to you personally, but it's not to your potential employer. It's not the 90's anymore.

See, this post and the one before it make valid points - without making fun of me! I don't quite agree but see your point. It is all about how you weight the various factors - different weights lead to different conclusions.
 
High NCAA D1 basketball is one of the premier NBA developmental leagues. Just look at where the bulk of NBA players played prior to NBA.

What we know they gave up: $60k+ in scholarship and stipend. Opportunity to play with and against NBA bound competition. Coaching by former NBA players. Television appearances where friends and family can watch easily. Lots of opportunity to be seen by NBA scouts.

What they get as of now: Playing BB without worrying about college classes and work. Unknown $ salary. Limited to no appearances on US TV. Unlikely to have coaches with NBA experience. Unlikely to be playing with or against future NBA players.


So $60K in tuition and exposure. Not nothing. NBA teams are getting a lot better at scouting Europe, both for young Europeans and experienced guys, American or otherwise.

Most NBA players coming from college does not mean that the competition in college is better. The ACC isn’t a top 5 or maybe even a top 10 basketball league in the world.

If they are a bust in Europe and can’t afford to finish up their degree at Wake, they can transfer their credits to a state school and finish for half the price.
 
Where did I say they have to come back to Wake to finish their degree? What I have said is that a degree from Wake Forest is quite valuable. I have also said it is more difficult than you might think to go back and finish a degree later - with life getting in the way. I did mention that it would be expensive, perhaps implying finishing at Wake. I do think finishing at Wake and getting a Wake degree is more valuable than finishing at your random local state school - though that would be less expensive.

Y'all can keep telling yourselves that I am out of touch - that doesn't make it true.

Look - we have beaten this horse to death many times. Y'all are free to disagree with me and clearly many of you do. But, that doesn't mean my opinion is stupid or that I am some old, senile white guy yelling at clouds. Despite what y'all might think, older folks have actually seen some things and know some stuff. When you reach my age you will realize that I am not that old anyway.

I just think that one year is nothing - a blink of an eye. And in one year they could have their Wake degree while getting it paid for and taking advantage of all the academic support they have while on scholarship. At the same time they would be working on their game. Moore, especially, is on a trajectory of rapidly improving skills. Crawford had somewhat of a down year last year and would have the chance to show that was an anomaly. So they come out next year in no worse a position, basketball-wise, and possibly a better position. Off the court they now have their degree and don't have to worry about coming back to get it later (wherever they choose to do that).

Whatever. I just wish y'all could argue with me without making it personal - saying I am out of touch, old, gross, etc. I just don't see why it is necessary.

Says the guy calling 21 year olds he’s never met stupid
 
"That's just, like, your opinion, man", The Dude. Hard to prove either way - so many variables.

I think you are undervaluing a college degree from Wake Forest, and greatly underestimating the difficulty (and expense) of completing it later. I think you are over-estimating the loss of one year of professional basketball for these players. I could be overestimating the impact of a good year of college ball on their career - but, even if it doesn't make a huge difference, they would only lose one year and would gain the degree as a back-up. Plus, if they work hard during that year, there is no reason they couldn't continue to develop their skills - that is especially true for Moore. He is somewhat of a late bloomer and still on the upswing skill-wise - another year of work under Manning and he could make another leap.

I left Wake 30 hours shy of my degree and went back later on to get it.
 
I left Wake 30 hours shy of my degree and went back later on to get it.

How much later? Was it easy? Was it cheap? Are you glad you left and went back and would you do it that way again? Were you getting your education free the first time? Everyone's situation is different, I realize that.

I went back to law school later in life - and at night while working full time. It wasn't easy but it worked for me.
 
How much later? Was it easy? Was it cheap? Are you glad you left and went back and would you do it that way again? Were you getting your education free the first time? Everyone's situation is different, I realize that.

I went back to law school later in life - and at night while working full time. It wasn't easy but it worked for me.

I think Wake is offering athletes who are qualified academically and go pro "lifetime scholarships" to finish their degrees. Many schools have adopted this program.

The reality is unless something miraculous happens this summer, it will be more difficult to get a look in the NBA from a lower Euro league than coming back to Wake.
 
Understand it's the Summer and without games to talk about, we keep rehashing this issue, but some points that appear to be missing from the perspective of those that can't get over the fact the Moore and Crawford went pro after three years of college:

- While Moore and Crawford were not going to get taken in 2018 NBA draft and will not play in the NBA this year, they also weren't going to get drafted in 2019 either. A majority of the NBA draft now involves prospects that aren't ready for NBA, that are going straight to the G-League, but NBA scouts are paid to find potential in their games that may develop in a year or two or even more. If Moore and Crawford didn't show enough to get drafted as 21 year-olds and after 3 years of ACC basketball, very unlikely that the NBA is suddenly going to fall in love with them when they are a year older; one senior, Grayson Allen, was a 1st round pick in the 2018 NBA draft. At best, the NBA chances for Moore and Crawford may have increased from 0% to 5% had they stayed, but neither has a NBA future regardless of how many years of ACC basketball they played. Really a reach to claim that another year at WF would've transformed either one to a solid NBA player.

- Most college students don't graduate in 4 years. Even so, their lives aren't ruined. Bill Gates left Harvard after two years; things seemed to workout for him. Not at all unusual for kid to take a detour during his initial college years and then go back and finish, or not. Yes, Moore and Crawford are giving up their last year when WF pays for school (btw, we don't even know if both were on track to graduate had they stayed for another year), but they clearly didn't want to stay another year in college and wanted to try to make it playing basketball. Simply because you and me (and Tim Duncan) stayed in college for 4 consecutive years and graduated on time doesn't mean that path is for everybody. Maybe one or both hated college, got nothing out of it and if they had graduated at all, the degree would not be as helpful in a future career as taking time away from college, figuring out what your life path is, and then going back when you are motivated to learn and have specific career in mind. Again, not unusual for a 21 year-old to feel like another year of college is not for him at this time. So, let's not make it seem like everyone who does not graduate in 4 years is destined for failure, or those that do graduate in 4 years have any guarantee of success. Both premises are false.

- Finally, not buying the "Moore and Crawford" got bad advice claim. Have no doubt that Manning, the WF staff and the NBA (which provides a draft projection for those that declare) all advised that getting drafted at all was unlikely for both. Neither even received a combine invite; they could not have ignored that fact. Each knew or at least had to have some understanding that there was no NBA guarantee for either, and making the league the first year out of college was a longshot. Even so, both chose to pursue a basketball future with small paychecks in small towns or places far away over returning to WF. Neither Crawford nor Moore left WF with the expectation that they were going to live large in the NBA in 2018-9; they left because they didn't want to go to school, didn't want to play for WF and left because even an uncertain future trying to make it at some level of pro ball was better than another year of college. Not the first to feel that way and not the last.

The decision to leave WF after 3 years wasn't right and wasn't wrong; it was just their decision.

-
 
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Unless you're competing for very specific jobs at accounting, investment, etc firms that recruit Wake degrees or trying to get into a graduate program, a Wake degree isn't really "worth" anything more in the job market at this point. It may be worth more to you personally, but it's not to your potential employer. It's not the 90's anymore.

i-love-the-90s.png
 
How much later? Was it easy? Was it cheap? Are you glad you left and went back and would you do it that way again? Were you getting your education free the first time? Everyone's situation is different, I realize that.

I went back to law school later in life - and at night while working full time. It wasn't easy but it worked for me.

Year and a half later. Then took another three years before law school. Wasn’t cheap but it was easier because I was less of an idiot at 23 than I was at 21, and even less of one at 27.

And I assumed you were talking about making the decision to go back. If it’s a hard decision you probably shouldn’t do it.

That’s what it boils down to for me. The opportunity to get the degree is always going to be there, and can be done while playing professionally, the opportunity to make money playing basketball isn’t and can’t be done while playing in college.
 
I think Wake is offering athletes who are qualified academically and go pro "lifetime scholarships" to finish their degrees. Many schools have adopted this program.

The reality is unless something miraculous happens this summer, it will be more difficult to get a look in the NBA from a lower Euro league than coming back to Wake.

The likelihood of either is near zero. Better to get your career in Europe started earlier so you can move to a higher league sooner. I also don’t think the G-league is out of the question for either guy. The best leagues in Europe don’t like signing guys straight out of college.
 
Understand it's the Summer and without games to talk about, we keep rehashing this issue, but some points that appear to be missing from the perspective of those that can't get over the fact the Moore and Crawford went pro after three years of college:

- While Moore and Crawford were not going to get taken in 2018 NBA draft and will not play in the NBA this year, they also weren't going to get drafted in 2019 either. A majority of the NBA draft now involves prospects that aren't ready for NBA, that are going straight to the G-League, but NBA scouts are paid to find potential in their games that may develop in a year or two or even more. If Moore and Crawford didn't show enough to get drafted as 21 year-olds and after 3 years of ACC basketball, very unlikely that the NBA is suddenly going to fall in love with them when they are a year older; one senior, Grayson Allen, was a 1st round pick in the 2018 NBA draft. At best, the NBA chances for Moore and Crawford may have increased from 0% to 5% had they stayed, but neither has a NBA future regardless of how many years of ACC basketball they played. Really a reach to claim that another year at WF would've transformed either one to a solid NBA player.

- Most college students don't graduate in 4 years. Even so, their lives aren't ruined. Bill Gates left Harvard after two years; things seemed to workout for him. Not at all unusual for kid to take a detour during his initial college years and then go back and finish, or not. Yes, Moore and Crawford are giving up their last year when WF pays for school (btw, we don't even know if both were on track to graduate had they stayed for another year), but they clearly didn't want to stay another year in college and wanted to try to make it playing basketball. Simply because you and me (and Tim Duncan) stayed in college for 4 consecutive years and graduated on time doesn't mean that path is for everybody. Maybe one or both hated college, got nothing out of it and if they had graduated at all, the degree would not be as helpful in a future career as taking time away from college, figuring out what your life path is, and then going back when you are motivated to learn and have specific career in mind. Again, not unusual for a 21 year-old to feel like another year of college is not for him at this time. So, let's not make it seem like everyone who does not graduate in 4 years is destined for failure, or those that do graduate in 4 years have any guarantee of success. Both premises are false.

- Finally, not buying the "Moore and Crawford" got bad advice claim. Have no doubt that Manning, the WF staff and the NBA (which provides a draft projection for those that declare) all advised that getting drafted at all was unlikely for both. Neither even received a combine invite; they could not have ignored that fact. Each knew or at least had to have some understanding that there was no NBA guarantee for either, and making the league the first year out of college was a longshot. Even so, both chose to pursue a basketball future with small paychecks in small towns or places far away over returning to WF. Neither Crawford nor Moore left WF with the expectation that they were going to live large in the NBA in 2018-9; they left because they didn't want to go to school, didn't want to play for WF and left because even an uncertain future trying to make it at some level of pro ball was better than another year of college. Not the first to feel that way and not the last.

The decision to leave WF after 3 years wasn't right and wasn't wrong; it was just their decision.

-

I disagree with the first point. If Craw improved on his soph year as a senior, he could have had a good shot at being drafted after next year. If Doral improved again, he'd likely get drafted next year as well. This was the worst year for a marginal big to enter the draft in the past decade. This was loaded with bigs.

Each would have had a better chance next year and if they improved, each would have had a better chance to enter Euro ball at a higher level.

As to the last point about advice, none of us know who was in their ears. It's pretty obvious that they listened to people other than our staff.
 
one senior, Grayson Allen, was a 1st round pick in the 2018 NBA draft. At best, the NBA chances for Moore and Crawford may have increased from 0% to 5% had they stayed, but neither has a NBA future regardless of how many years of ACC basketball they played. Really a reach to claim that another year at WF would've transformed either one to a solid NBA player.

Chandler Hutchinson, from Boise State, was also a senior taken in the first round this year. He blew up his junior year.

Someone suggested earlier that players don't greatly improve their draft stock by staying in school, which is really incorrect. Jerome Robinson went from a 3 star with minimal draft prospects to the lottery after his junior year. Moe Wagner returned to school and went in the first round. And these are just examples from this year, off the top of my head.
 
I disagree with the first point. If Craw improved on his soph year as a senior, he could have had a good shot at being drafted after next year. If Doral improved again, he'd likely get drafted next year as well.

To be fair, they would have been a part of an almost pre-season top 25 team if they had stayed around, right? Standard RJ practice of making outlandish, yet hedged declarations (2 ifs, 1 could, 1 likely) about what would have been once it's impossible to proven wrong anyway.

As to the last point about advice, none of us know who was in their ears. It's pretty obvious that they listened to people other than our staff.

No. It's not. For all we know, the staff and scouts told them they were highly unlikely to make the NBA by sticking around another year.
 
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