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Atlanta school removes morning pledge of allegiance

I kind of appreciated the dynamic, growing up in quite liberal public schools, where we said the pledge every morning and there were always significant groups of people who did not stand for it or did not say it, which decision was fully supported. It was a kind of daily reminder of the right to free speech (including the right not to speak) and that such rights are fundamental American values. Sounds kind of hokey, but I think inculcating loyalty to the ideals of America, while also being clear that they are frequently not lived up to, is a good thing.
 
i would imagine loyalty to the state should be inculcated by expression of and adherence to values, not by rote pledges. probably why most kids roll their eyes and/or opt out when they actually start thinking critically
 
What makes it creepy? To me it's very different from singing the national anthem before sporting events, which I agree is dumb.
 
i would imagine loyalty to the state should be inculcated by expression of and adherence to values, not by rote pledges. probably why most kids roll their eyes and/or opt out when they actually start thinking critically

Yeah. Many of the same people who are so adamant about a pledge that ends “liberty and justice for all” also hate “social justice warriors” who actually fight for liberty and justice for all.

I looked up the history of the pledge. I didn’t realize that the word “Nation” was capitalized at the same time “under God” was added. That’s elevating the status of the country to that of God.

Also came across some problematic elements I had never heard. Like this:

“The origins of the pledge trace to the late 19th century, the product of an expansionist American project. In 1891, the family magazine Youth’s Companion asked 35-year-old Francis Bellamy, a former pastor of Boston’s Bethany Baptist Church, to fashion a patriotic program for schools around the country to commemorate the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’s “arrival in America” by “raising the U.S. Flag over every public school from the Atlantic to the Pacific.””

...

“Through the pledge, Bellamy sought to define “true Americanism” against the rising tide of southern and eastern European immigrants “pouring over our country” in the early 20th century from “races which we cannot assimilate without a lowering of our racial standard.” Although Bellamy conceded that “the United States has always been a nation of immigrants,” he argued that “incoming waves of immigrants … are coming from countries whose institutions are entirely at variance with our own.”

Decrying the character and “quality” of these recent newcomers, Bellamy lamented that “we cannot be the dumping ground of Europe and bloom like a flower garden.” To him, “every dull-witted and fanatical immigrant” granted citizenship threatened the American republic.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-the-pledge-of-allegiance-and-why-it-matters/
 
yeah, i mean it's not surprising the pledge dates to the high-water mark of European imperialism and the american attempt to moral-wash it.
 
Would you like to explain your opinion?

I will try, but I fear that it may be a waste of my time to do so for folks who equate saying the Pledge of Allegiance to "some Hitler Youth shit" or who have opined that members of our Armed Forces are merely the "children of our dumbest citizens."

In summary, I believe that saying the Pledge of Allegiance and standing for the National Anthem are small but visible expressions of loyalty and respect to and for our Nation. I am proud to be able to do it, and do not see it as a chore or otherwise onerous. I believe that in exchange for all of the many individual rights and freedoms that we are afforded, that we in turn owe duties and responsibilities as citizens. I happen to believe deeply in John F. Kennedy's challenge in his inaugural address of: "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Saying the Pledge or standing for the National Anthem with my fellow citizens are small but affirmative expressions of unity and loyalty. You may think it is silly or creepy, but mine is a deeply and sincerely held belief. I fully recognize that my perspective is reinforced by my upbringing in a military family and from my own military service, further driven home from family members and friends having shed their blood for our Nation.

In turn, I would really like to hear the true reasons (not a pithy statement along the lines of "it is creepy" or "Hitler Youth shit") underlying the ridicule, if not utter contempt, expressed/held by so many of you with regard to the Pledge of Allegiance, the National Anthem, or other similar customs of loyalty and respect to our Nation. I would like to better understand why we have such vastly different worldviews on these issues.

I appreciate your time. Have a good rest of your day. I've got to get back to trying to make a living.
 
i suppose you forget or ignore the fact that i apologized for that comment, probably because your dumb horse is so fucking high up in the air you have a hard time getting enough oxygen
 
Wait, schools still do this? I think 1st grade - 1992 for me - was the last time I remember saying the pledge in school
 
1. Likely due to growing up in the church, I find all mass recitation to be uncomfortable and reinforcing of uncritical support of power.

2. I don't think chanting or singing actually accomplishes anything close to "what you can do for your country". I think it's pure pageantry.

3. I have negative feelings towards US imperial activity and the use of its military to achieve its economic goals at the expense of others. I don't believe that the majority of contemporary military activity is protecting my rights. I am no American exceptionalist and have no interest in reinforcing some idea that all military activity is sacrosanct.
 
Anybody else had to say a state pledge of allegiance after the US one? In Texas we did.

“Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."
 
Anybody else had to say a state pledge of allegiance after the US one? In Texas we did.

“Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."

which allegiance is more allegiance-y, one wonders
 
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92 is the only one here with a job so he’s probably too busy to respond but I’ll ask. What’s your response to my post from an hour ago about the nativist origins of the pledge?
 
I don't agree with 92's post, but maybe a response is just to acknowledge both the awful and the great parts of American history? Public servants pledge to uphold the constitution, which was also founded on oppressive, unjust ideals (among noble ones as well).

I'm not saying that reciting pledge is necessary or anything, I'm just pushing back on the idea that doing so is inherently fascist or nativist. It's supposed to be patriotic. Do those who oppose the pledge believe in teaching patriotism in schools? If so, how?
 
I think it reaffirms some weird American exceptionalism and god blessed this country so we can do know wrong mentality, somewhat fitting since it’s recited in school that has whitewashed and positive faced pretty much the entire history of this country. Further my ability to say this pledge as a child is predicated mostly on my pure chance that I was born in this country and has nothing to do with my own merits or accomplishments. If anyone should recite it, it would be people who have worked the long road to become us citizens as adults.
 
Too many people have a tough time distinguishing between nativist and patriotic.

Louis makes good points about the context of the pledge. Reciting the pledge and then learning that slavery wasn’t that bad and not learning about the Chinese Exclusion Act and glossing over Jim Crow and so forth and so on definitely breeds a nativist sentiment that places Nation above all else even liberty and justice for all.

My kids started school yesterday. Probably a majority of the kids are immigrants or children of immigrants. Why should they pledge allegiance to a country that has no allegiance to them and their rights?
 
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Too many people have a tough time distinguishing between nativist and patriotic.

Louis makes good points about the context of the pledge. Reciting the pledge and then learning that slavery wasn’t that bad and not learning about the Chinese Exclusion Act and glossing over Jim Crow and so forth and so on definitely breeds a nativist sentiment that places Nation above all else even liberty and justice for all.

My kids started school yesterday. Probably a majority of the kids are immigrants or children of immigrants. Why should they pledge allegiance to a country that has no allegiance to them and their rights?

This is not a commentary on your particular school, but in general I think the response to anti-immigrant policies and rhetoric has to be: "That's not American," not "America is anti-immigrant so forget America." I understand how that can sound pollyannaish given our current reality, but what is the alternative? I feel like now more than ever it should be reaffirmed, in schools especially, that nativism is inconsistent with patriotism and American values.
 
I guess Ph thinks we should raise our kids as nation-less free agents and if the US and its allies are ever attacked we'll all talk about it and then they can decide if they're loyal or not.
 
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