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Has the men's basketball program now, finally, hit ROCK BOTTOM?

Have we finally arrived?

  • Total voters
    85
  • Poll closed .
I suspected long ago that RChill was that rare personality that simply cannot be wrong and lives to self-justify. And in that sense he has met and exceeded my expectations.
 
DeacDaddy said:
I suspected long ago that RChill was that rare personality that simply cannot be wrong and lives to self-justify. And in that sense he has met and exceeded my expectations.
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You clearly don’t know me. I’m wrong a fair amount, and am quick to admit it when it’s pointed out to me (as I’ve done several times during these discussions over the years).

I don’t ever say I’m wrong just to end an argument and I’m not a big fan of “agreeing to disagree” unless I think there are two well founded, yet different, opinions. If that makes me rare then I’m ok with that.
 
You’re more of a “disagreeing to agree” kind of guy.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Under Manning 12th, 14th, 10th, 14th. I'm good to see what someone else could do.
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After all, isn't this the only thing that matters?? 17-19 wins are nice, but they don't really matter (see birdman's bragging rights theme) that much if you don't really beat anyone to get to that record. It's okay once and awhile when a program is hitting the reset button after some sustained success, but when it can't really get "out of the gate" in four years, do we really need more proof of its racing class (to once again borrow from horse racing)?

In addition to conference record & finish, I'd say the most important things (because they are what people remember and what forms good memories of a particular season) are beating other ranked teams and post-season accomplishments.

After GDO's first year, in which we finished 3-13 in conference and only beat 1 out of 8 ranked teams, we enjoyed 21 straight years of "historical competitiveness" in which the fans & alumni became accustomed to just that: top third (man wouldn't 5th out of 15 seem refreshing??) finish in conference, multiple (between 3 and 6 on avg) wins against ranked competition, and some occasional modicum of post-season success.

Obviously the most rankling thing about following WF BB has been the almost automatic end of season, and post-season flame-outs, even during the best of times. But at least there was comfort in the fact that, generally speaking, Wake Forest would usually be playing some type of post-season BB.

At any rate, here are the last 4 Wake coaches, along with the current, and how they have fared in the 3 categories I mentioned:

GDO* -- 101-87 conference record (avg finish of 4th over 12 yrs); 42-72 record vs ranked opponents with multiple wins over Duke, Carolina, UVa, GT, UMd etc.

*obviously we know what post-season success was achieved during his tenure, but Davey racked up more post-season wins (3) in his first four years than Bzd & DM combined over their first four campaigns (3-7 may not seem that impressive, but a 12-26 record against ranked opponents bought Dave a 5th year and probably more with Childress having 2 years left due to injury).

SKIP -- 52-44 conference record (avg finish of 5th over 6 yrs); 18-33 record vs ranked oppnts w/ multiple wins over Duke, UNC, UVa as well as Wisky, Ariz & Texas)

DINO -- 27-21 conference record (avg finish of 5th over 3 yrs); 8-8 record vs ranked oppnts w/ multiple Ws over Duke, UNC, Clem & various other rnkd conf rivals)

JEFF -- 19-51 conference record (avg finish of 10th of 12 mostly); 4-12 record vs ranked tms w/ Ws over Duke, UNC, NCSt & Miami. Post-season: 1-4

DaMan?? -- 20-52 conference record (avg finish of b/w 12th & 13th out of 15); 2-28 record vs ranked opponents w/ Ws over IU & L'ville. Post-season: 1-5

There's obviously been talk of mitigating circumstances (e.g. Collins getting drafted, early departure of Dinos and Key Woods' injury-plagued season), but from a high-level look at reasonable and comparable criterion, it's a bit easier to see why folks feel Danny's fanny should be much warmer on his coaching (hot) seat than he probably is. The results, despite the 3rd year blip and entertaining brand of basketball, really aren't there, even in the ballyhooed 3rd season of 19-13 and post-season "berth."

Despite 9 wins in conference, only 2 were against the top half of the league, and the other 7 were against basement dwellers. Finally, after four years, people expect more, and should. GDO set the precedent for returning the program to relevance from the fires of destruction after Staak burned the program down to the ground. Hard to fault people for expecting Danny to do a bit better after [name redacted] did the same to our once "storied" program. Yet as bad as Bzzdoofus was, he still has as many post-season wins as Manning, and more ranked opponent wins than DM through 4 seasons.

Thus why folks are certainly fatigued by rehashing so much of this, because at this point it seems the only important question left is: is Hoard as good as Rodney Rogers or Tim Duncan in terms of potential impact as a freshman, and will it be enough to buy Danny more time? Such a double-edged sword because if he is, he's gone and then what? Guess the better question might be: can Danny teach his squad how to play defense finally and give them a better chance of winning games at the end of games to save his job?

But I wouldn't want to get too nuanced in my discussion of something we all know needs just that -- a nuanced approach -- to fairly assess our program's prospects going forward. Even if we do argue nuance, was 2016-2017 really as good as certain people think it is?? Probably not, and there is plenty of statistical evidence to support that. However, I've posted lots of it on various threads on this here forum, and I'm not spending any more time analyzing turds.
 
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birdman said:
You didn’t answer the question.
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Needed more information.

If you were actually using 8 straight as shorthand for 7 out of 8, and you simply mis-counted when you said 12 out of 15, then I guess my problem is that I didn’t read your post as charitably as I should have.

If that’s not the case, however, then my problem is that you were intentionally full of shit in the following posts:

birdman said:
Short hand has to be allowable sometimes. Statistically speaking 7 out of 8 is pretty close to 8 out 8.
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birdman said:
For fucks sake, I'll edit the god dammed post. Just when I was starting to find you tolerable.

But in reality, your wrong about statistics. With only 8 samples, 7 out of 8 zeros is statistically indistinguishable from 8 out of 8 zeros.
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birdman said:
7 OUT OF 8 YEARS!!!!!!!!
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PhDeac said:
You’re more of a “disagreeing to agree” kind of guy.
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I’m of the mind that most of you actually agree with me when you bother to think about Manning and Wake Basketball rationally.

I laid out a fairly succinct (for me at least) statement of my views on the matter recently. I’ll go find it and post it here. Y’all can respond with a simple “I agree” and we can never have this conversation again.

When the venting gets out of control on threads not meant for that purpose I’ll call you all out on it and then we can all move forward since y’all will know that you’re letting your emotions get the best of you and I’ll know I’m being an asshole.
 
Excellent thread with a lot of new information to consider. Great work everyone.
 
A smug asshole is no way to go through life. Hopefully for those around you this is your release and they aren't subjected to it person. Please continue being the board's policing authority.

I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
 
RChildress107 said:
Needed more information.

If you were actually using 8 straight as shorthand for 7 out of 8, and you simply mis-counted when you said 12 out of 15, then I guess my problem is that I didn’t read your post as charitably as I should have.

If that’s not the case, however, then my problem is that you were intentionally full of shit in the following posts:
Click to expand...

You seem to misunderstand the question. You don’t need more information from me to take a brief introspective moment to just think about what your problem is. Put your phone down or step away from the keyboard. Maybe step outside on the back porch for a moment, take a deep breath, listen for a moment to the migrating flocks of chimney Swift’s getting ready to settled down into their evening roost. Just be present for a moment, then ask your self, ‘what the fuck is my problem?’ Roll it around in your mind for a minute and see if you can get some clarity. I can’t give that to you. It has to come from within. I am here for you if there aren’t any swifts and you need help IDing any other birds that are present.
 
I would have liked to have seen Jeff get one more year. Would have loved to see him coach with all of his own players. I really think Wake was turning the corner.
 
birdman said:
You seem to misunderstand the question. You don’t need more information from me to take a brief introspective moment to just think about what your problem is. Put your phone down or step away from the keyboard. Maybe step outside on the back porch for a moment, take a deep breath, listen for a moment to the migrating flocks of chimney Swift’s getting ready to settled down into their evening roost. Just be present for a moment, then ask your self, ‘what the fuck is my problem?’ Roll it around in your mind for a minute and see if you can get some clarity. I can’t give that to you. It has to come from within. I am here for you if there aren’t any swifts and you need help IDing any other birds that are present.
Click to expand...

Clearly. I thought that when you said “serious question” that what followed was a serious question about the topic at hand, not a rhetorical question meant to imply that there is something seriously wrong with my life. You didn’t seem like some of these guys who let a message board argument raise their blood pressure or ruin their day.

Just in case you were actually taking a serious interest in my well being, then first of all, a sincere thank you. It’s always refreshing to know that a stranger cares. To answer your question, I have several problems, as I imagine we all do, but none that are particularly troubling or interesting. My dog eats shit he’s not supposed to, my allergies are bad this time of year, I can’t find a decent Chinese place nearby. Just the normal mundane shit. Overall, life is good. Thanks for asking though.
 
deaconson said:
A smug asshole is no way to go through life. Hopefully for those around you this is your release and they aren't subjected to it person. Please continue being the board's policing authority.

I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Click to expand...

I would sincerely hope that no one on here subjects their friends and families to the shit they talk about on here.
 
birdman said:
You seem to misunderstand the question. You don’t need more information from me to take a brief introspective moment to just think about what your problem is. Put your phone down or step away from the keyboard. Maybe step outside on the back porch for a moment, take a deep breath, listen for a moment to the migrating flocks of chimney Swift’s getting ready to settled down into their evening roost. Just be present for a moment, then ask your self, ‘what the fuck is my problem?’ Roll it around in your mind for a minute and see if you can get some clarity. I can’t give that to you. It has to come from within. I am here for you if there aren’t any swifts and you need help IDing any other birds that are present.
Click to expand...

I always enjoy the cardinal, wrens and towhees in my neighborhood when I need a moment of zen or tranquility. I was particularly crestfallen when the family of wrens that nested in our deck plant decided it was time to move on to greener birdie pastures...wrens are the bomb but they have driven off the nut hatches...sad.
 
Why the Deac Not said:
I always enjoy the cardinal, wrens and towhees in my neighborhood when I need a moment of zen or tranquility. I was particularly crestfallen when the family of wrens that nested in our deck plant decided it was time to move on to greener birdie pastures...wrens are the bomb but they have driven off the nut hatches...sad.
Click to expand...

Birds really are the best.
 
Why the Deac Not said:
After all, isn't this the only thing that matters?? 17-19 wins are nice, but they don't really matter (see birdman's bragging rights theme) that much if you don't really beat anyone to get to that record. It's okay once and awhile when a program is hitting the reset button after some sustained success, but when it can't really get "out of the gate" in four years, do we really need more proof of its racing class (to once again borrow from horse racing)?

In addition to conference record & finish, I'd say the most important things (because they are what people remember and what forms good memories of a particular season) are beating other ranked teams and post-season accomplishments.

After GDO's first year, in which we finished 3-13 in conference and only beat 1 out of 8 ranked teams, we enjoyed 21 straight years of "historical competitiveness" in which the fans & alumni became accustomed to just that: top third (man wouldn't 5th out of 15 seem refreshing??) finish in conference, multiple (between 3 and 6 on avg) wins against ranked competition, and some occasional modicum of post-season success.

Obviously the most rankling thing about following WF BB has been the almost automatic end of season, and post-season flame-outs, even during the best of times. But at least there was comfort in the fact that, generally speaking, Wake Forest would usually be playing some type of post-season BB.

At any rate, here are the last 4 Wake coaches, along with the current, and how they have fared in the 3 categories I mentioned:

GDO* -- 101-87 conference record (avg finish of 4th over 12 yrs); 42-72 record vs ranked opponents with multiple wins over Duke, Carolina, UVa, GT, UMd etc.

*obviously we know what post-season success was achieved during his tenure, but Davey racked up more post-season wins (3) in his first four years than Bzd & DM combined over their first four campaigns (3-7 may not seem that impressive, but a 12-26 record against ranked opponents bought Dave a 5th year and probably more with Childress having 2 years left due to injury).

SKIP -- 52-44 conference record (avg finish of 5th over 6 yrs); 18-33 record vs ranked oppnts w/ multiple wins over Duke, UNC, UVa as well as Wisky, Ariz & Texas)

DINO -- 27-21 conference record (avg finish of 5th over 3 yrs); 8-8 record vs ranked oppnts w/ multiple Ws over Duke, UNC, Clem & various other rnkd conf rivals)

JEFF -- 19-51 conference record (avg finish of 10th of 12 mostly); 4-12 record vs ranked tms w/ Ws over Duke, UNC, NCSt & Miami. Post-season: 1-4

DaMan?? -- 20-52 conference record (avg finish of b/w 12th & 13th out of 15); 2-28 record vs ranked opponents w/ Ws over IU & L'ville. Post-season: 1-5

There's obviously been talk of mitigating circumstances (e.g. Collins getting drafted, early departure of Dinos and Key Woods' injury-plagued season), but from a high-level look at reasonable and comparable criterion, it's a bit easier to see why folks feel Danny's fanny should be much warmer on his coaching (hot) seat than he probably is. The results, despite the 3rd year blip and entertaining brand of basketball, really aren't there, even in the ballyhooed 3rd season of 19-13 and post-season "berth."

Despite 9 wins in conference, only 2 were against the top half of the league, and the other 7 were against basement dwellers. Finally, after four years, people expect more, and should. GDO set the precedent for returning the program to relevance from the fires of destruction after Staak burned the program down to the ground. Hard to fault people for expecting Danny to do a bit better after [name redacted] did the same to our once "storied" program. Yet as bad as Bzzdoofus was, he still has as many post-season wins as Manning, and more ranked opponent wins than DM through 4 seasons.

Thus why folks are certainly fatigued by rehashing so much of this, because at this point it seems the only important question left is: is Hoard as good as Rodney Rogers or Tim Duncan in terms of potential impact as a freshman, and will it be enough to buy Danny more time? Such a double-edged sword because if he is, he's gone and then what? Guess the better question might be: can Danny teach his squad how to play defense finally and give them a better chance of winning games at the end of games to save his job?

But I wouldn't want to get too nuanced in my discussion of something we all know needs just that -- a nuanced approach -- to fairly assess our program's prospects going forward. Even if we do argue nuance, was 2016-2017 really as good as certain people think it is?? Probably not, and there is plenty of statistical evidence to support that. However, I've posted lots of it on various threads on this here forum, and I'm not spending any more time analyzing turds.
Click to expand...

I did not realize how close to identical the won loss records were. No doubt Manning's teams are more competitive but apparently have an incredible knack for not closing the deal.

Should we be happy that the 30-40 point blow outs left with Jeff? I guess.

Somebody call Ryan Odom and see if he would mind stopping by Winston Salem and take one more step than his dad did.
 
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