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Has the men's basketball program now, finally, hit ROCK BOTTOM?

Have we finally arrived?


  • Total voters
    85
  • Poll closed .
Each of those seasons was a fireable offense because the difference in KP ranking of 117 and 257 doesn't really feel very big. Sure you can quantify the difference in offensive efficiency across those teams but they all sucked donkey dick. Suckage is basically a Bernoulli response variable, you either suck or you don't, and we have sucked for 7 out of 8 years. To some extent there are different degrees of non suckage, sure. But, college basketball fandom is almost entirely about bragging rights and pride in your school. You're in the top 10 you get to brag all you want, top 10- 25 you've got some bragging rights, top 35 you're allowed in the conversation, top 50-300, who gives a fuck about you and how pretty good you were when that one guy who dunks a lot for Atlanta was on your team that one season. You're assessment of team quality and program performance by picking apart advanced statistics completely glosses over the fact that the objective of being a Wake BBall fan is simply to have pride in our school and our team and that for the last 8 years we have pretty much a whole lot of nothing to brag about. You are missing the whole point.

They were each a fireable offense because any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball. There weren’t any mitigating circumstances to justify any of those seasons. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a noticeable difference between 105 and 305.

I actually sympathize with a lot of the rest of your post. But according to your own standards there are only two seasons since Chris Paul left (08-09, and 16-17) that anyone should care about, which means the problem started with Skip and continued through Dino, [Redacted], and Manning. All of it shit, therefore all of it the same. If that’s your position then that’s fine, but I doubt it is.
 
Why do you feel the need to defend Manning against such comparisons, and in general, for multiple hours every week? Don't you have better things to do with your time? You certainly do evoke a lot of emotions from a lot of people - anger, frustration, bewilderment, pity, comedy.

Because I like Manning as a person, think he’s been a net positive for the university, and still think he has the potential to improve the program further (though the Jones thing probably sniffed out that potential and even if not, if the pace doesn’t pick up considerably then he needs to go).

More importantly, it’s just a fucking stupid and unnecessary comparison. It’s revisionist history that triggers a visceral reaction to the original Sunshine Brigade that defended [Redacted] for years. And it’s not necessary to the point y’all are trying to make.

And I like to argue, especially with other smart people. I also like to troll, especially stupid people. I can find both here.
 
So you’re saying the reason you were more satisfied in 2007 wasn’t just the proximity to a #1 ranking. Could have mentioned that the first time.

It’s not desperation when they come to you.

People's thoughts can be nuanced baby. It's a big word, look it up.

I offered you one reason why I felt better about the program at Date A than Date B. I have more, but you're not worth the time. Sorry!
 
And that's why some people can look at the right now and call it rock bottom. RChill's precious Kenpom fails to factor in things like your assistant coach killing a dude or a head coach who has a very low ceiling, a fat extension and seemingly no pressure to produce. Manning could declare himself a Duke fan who thinks UNC was robbed by the NCAA while supporting Putin to take over as Dictator of the US, but as long as we move up a few spots in Kenpom, RChill would seemingly be satisfied with the direction of the program vs last season. It can't be rock bottom if Kenpom doesn't say so!!

Yeah, the conversation was specifically addressing the on the court performance, last season was shit (unlike y’all I don’t adjust my standards based on past performance) and improving on shit doesn’t mean anything to me, Manning needs a tourney appearance, top 50 KP, AND a solid 2019 class or he needs to go, and he needs even more than that for me to be satisfied with the overall direction of the program.

Keep beating that straw man though.
 
They were each a fireable offense because any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball. There weren’t any mitigating circumstances to justify any of those seasons. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a noticeable difference between 105 and 305.

I actually sympathize with a lot of the rest of your post. But according to your own standards there are only two seasons since Chris Paul left (08-09, and 16-17) that anyone should care about, which means the problem started with Skip and continued through Dino, [Redacted], and Manning. All of it shit, therefore all of it the same. If that’s your position then that’s fine, but I doubt it is.

glad to see you coming around to that bold part
 
Zion Williamson's 300 pound ass is dunkin from the free throw line while im dunkin donuts.
 
They were each a fireable offense because any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball. There weren’t any mitigating circumstances to justify any of those seasons. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a noticeable difference between 105 and 305.

I actually sympathize with a lot of the rest of your post. But according to your own standards there are only two seasons since Chris Paul left (08-09, and 16-17) that anyone should care about, which means the problem started with Skip and continued through Dino, [Redacted], and Manning. All of it shit, therefore all of it the same. If that’s your position then that’s fine, but I doubt it is.

You characterization is incorrect in that we as fans should care immensely that only 2 seasons since the early oughts have gotten us close to bragging right. Thats the whole fucking problems, there has been very little to brag about for 15 years.
 

Unlike [Redacted]’s four seasons, there were mitigating circumstances for that one (and the one before) which I’ve numerated many times. There were mitigating circumstances for Skip’s sub-100 season as well.

Also for future reference, if you think you’ve caught me in some sort of trap that involves you linking to the Kenpom rank for a given year, you might want to re-read the conversation.
 
You characterization is incorrect in that we as fans should care immensely that only 2 seasons since the early oughts have gotten us close to bragging right. Thats the whole fucking problems, there has been very little to brag about for 15 years.

Again if you are on board with staking out the position that the program has been equal levels of shit since Chris left the program with two lucky exceptions then go ahead. It’s consistent and somewhat defensible. I disagree and think it’s a weird view to take as a fan, but it’s a legitimate opinion.

You’be been consistent and reasoned enough on these threads that I believe you might actually hold something similar to that view. I don’t think there are many that would join you in laying the root of our troubles at Skip’s feet.
 
Unlike [Redacted]’s four seasons, there were mitigating circumstances for that one (and the one before) which I’ve numerated many times. There were mitigating circumstances for Skip’s sub-100 season as well.

Also for future reference, if you think you’ve caught me in some sort of trap that involves you linking to the Kenpom rank for a given year, you might want to re-read the conversation.
"any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball."

Very cut and dry.

L
 
"any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball."

Very cut and dry.

L

It’s why I’ve been advocating for Wellman’s head since 2011.

If you need me to provide an explanation of what “mitigating circumstances” means, let me know.
 
I was thinking the opposite -- that if Hoard stays for his soph year, I hope it doesn't increase the likelihood that Manning stays, too. Assuming the 2019 class is weak as expected, really not much hope for 2019-20 if Hoard goes pro.

At the same time, the timeline of firing coaches and players declaring for the draft doesn't really line up in most cases. My worst fear is we keep Manning through April on the assumption that Hoard is staying for his soph year, and then Hoard kind of draws it out til the end of May like Crawford (as he has every right to do), and he ultimately goes pro and it's too late to fire Manning.

Ah, got it. Well, that would be a bad situation as well...so it will probably happen.
 
Unlike [Redacted]’s four seasons, there were mitigating circumstances for that one (and the one before) which I’ve numerated many times. There were mitigating circumstances for Skip’s sub-100 season as well.

Also for future reference, if you think you’ve caught me in some sort of trap that involves you linking to the Kenpom rank for a given year, you might want to re-read the conversation.

I've read your bullshit enough to know that you are stuck defending an indefensible position, and too proud/stupid to just admit you're wrong

11-game losing streak by an average of 17 points - unacceptable

11-game losing streak by an average of 12.5 points - met or exceeded expectations
 
I've read your bullshit enough to know that you are stuck defending an indefensible position, and too proud/stupid to just admit you're wrong

11-game losing streak by an average of 17 points - unacceptable

11-game losing streak by an average of 12.5 points - met or exceeded expectations

Both of those are unacceptable.

Does the class really need a lesson on mitigating circumstances?

Seriously?

Also when I cautioned against using Kenpom to play “gotcha” games I wasn’t encouraging you to cherry pick an arbitrary and small sample size of games.
 
Both of those are unacceptable.

Does the class really need a lesson on mitigating circumstances?

Seriously?

Also when I cautioned against using Kenpom to play “gotcha” games I wasn’t encouraging you to cherry pick an arbitrary and small sample size of games.

unacceptable - but met or exceeded expectations

not from you

you're the one that mentioned an arbitrary and small sample size of games on this thread - I just pointed out a similar case
 
Both of those are unacceptable.

Does the class really need a lesson on mitigating circumstances?

Seriously?

Also when I cautioned against using Kenpom to play “gotcha” games I wasn’t encouraging you to cherry pick an arbitrary and small sample size of games.
You're an absolute mess in logic.

L
 
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