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Has the men's basketball program now, finally, hit ROCK BOTTOM?

Have we finally arrived?

  • Total voters
    85
  • Poll closed .
thatguy2016 said:
unacceptable - but met or exceeded expectations

not from you

you're the one that mentioned an arbitrary and small sample size of games on this thread - I just pointed out a similar case
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Expectations for a program =\= expectations for a coach as a matter of necessity. This is especially true after a coaching change. This isn’t rocket science.

That range of games wasn’t arbitrary in response to the question of when we hit rock bottom. If you want to argue that we hit rock bottom at some point during Manning’s 11 game losing streak and then defend that argument no one is stopping you.
 
It'll hit rock bottom when we don't make the NCAAT this year and the boards loses great posters like myself and RChill....
 
i don't care if the team makes some bad loan shark deals and they all have their legs broken. a bet is a bet
 
RChildress107 said:


Expectations for a program =\= expectations for a coach as a matter of necessity. This is especially true after a coaching change. This isn’t rocket science.

That range of games wasn’t arbitrary in response to the question of when we hit rock bottom. If you want to argue that we hit rock bottom at some point during Manning’s 11 game losing streak and then defend that argument no one is stopping you.
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we're not launching rockets here, but you said []'s sub-100 seasons were "each a fireable offense because any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball"

in that context you were clearly 100% talking about the head coach when referring to said fireable offense

well, there's another head coach who had a sub-100 season (coincidentally, with an 11-game losing streak)

but that one wasn't a fireable offense - in fact it met or exceeded expectations! Hooray!
 
RChildress107 said:
I’ll await your logical proof before taking that L. This should be good.
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It's really just not worth the time or energy to get into an argument with you. Sorry to disappoint.
 
thatguy2016 said:
we're not launching rockets here, but you said []'s sub-100 seasons were "each a fireable offense because any season outside the top 100 is unacceptable for Wake Forest basketball"

in that context you were clearly 100% talking about the head coach when referring to said fireable offense

well, there's another head coach who had a sub-100 season (coincidentally, with an 11-game losing streak)

but that one wasn't a fireable offense - in fact it met or exceeded expectations! Hooray!
Click to expand...

It’s almost like there were extenuating circumstances for one of those coaches that didn’t exist for the other.

And I’m not sure I ever said “exceeded expectations” specifically referring to Manning’s first two seasons. My expectations for years 1 and 2 were simply don’t let the on court performance get any worse and quickly upgrade the talent level. Manning did both.
 
RChildress107 said:
Again if you are on board with staking out the position that the program has been equal levels of shit since Chris left the program with two lucky exceptions then go ahead. It’s consistent and somewhat defensible. I disagree and think it’s a weird view to take as a fan, but it’s a legitimate opinion.

You’be been consistent and reasoned enough on these threads that I believe you might actually hold something similar to that view. I don’t think there are many that would join you in laying the root of our troubles at Skip’s feet.
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Pretty excited that I am permitted to have my own opinion on these boards.

I'd just add the addendum that the occasional season in the shitter (i.e. 40 - 100 rank) is ok if it's not the norm. We fans can maintain satisfaction with the program through one or two bad season if the norm is top 25 and we dip into the top 60 for a year or two when players unexpectedly blow up and leave early or something like, so yeah extenuating circumstances. Four straight years, and really 8 straight years and actually like 12 out of 15 years outside the bragging rights zone and the fans (that are left) have every right to be pissed.

I don't lay our troubles at the feet of Prosser. I think he made one mistake, not preparing for the early departure of CP3, but he was on the road to recovering from that mistake when he suddenly died. I lay the root of all our troubles at the feet of Ron Wellman. I think Wellman has made one good decision for Wake Basketball (hiring Prosser) out of 5 times that he needed to make a big decision about Wake Basketball. This mess that we are in is entirely Wellman's fault. Well, ok maybe Jones killing a guy in New York is not Wellman's fault, but everything else is.
 
RChildress107 said:
It’s almost like there were extenuating circumstances for one of those coaches that didn’t exist for the other.

And I’m not sure I ever said “exceeded expectations” specifically referring to Manning’s first two seasons. My expectations for years 1 and 2 were simply don’t let the on court performance get any worse and quickly upgrade the talent level. Manning did both.
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you said he met or exceeded expectations, and then you doubled down on that. go read this again and all your supporting arguments to refresh:

RChildress107 said:
I’d boil it down to the following:

1. A coach deserves 100% of the credit/blame for his team’s performance.

2. The best way to measure a team’s (and thus a coach’s) true performance is using a method not overly reliant on randomness.

3. As long as there are no character or academic issues with his team, a college coach should be evaluated solely on his team’s performance relative to reasonable expectations set ahead of time, not some amorphous immeasurable standard of “coaching”.

4. That Manning’s performance through three seasons met or exceeded expectations except for his 2016 recruiting class. His fourth season did not meet those expectations and his 5th season and 2019 recruiting class do not look promising.

5. That Manning had a clear, obvious path for returning us to the upper half of the ACC and was on track to do so, even with the failure of the 2016 class, until JC left.

6. That on the whole, Talent is more important than in-game coaching in college basketball.

7. That Wellman sucks and has made two back to back shitty hires (the second at least in part due to the shitty position he put himself in) and that we should hope he doesn’t get a chance to make a third.

8. That Manning’s realistic ceiling probably wasn’t much higher than that outlined in #5, but that he was a couple of tough breaks from getting us back to a sustainable level we more or less sustained for 20 years pre-[Redacted].

9. That y’all are a bunch of overreactive cry babies that couldn’t even enjoy the only good thing that has happened to Wake basketball in a decade.
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thatguy2016 said:
you said he met or exceeded expectations, and then you doubled down on that. go read this again and all your supporting arguments to refresh:
Click to expand...

TBF to RC, he asserts that season three exceeded expectations and that seasons 1-2 met expectations.
 
birdman said:
Pretty excited that I am permitted to have my own opinion on these boards.

I'd just add the addendum that the occasional season in the shitter (i.e. 40 - 100 rank) is ok if it's not the norm. We fans can maintain satisfaction with the program through one or two bad season if the norm is top 25 and we dip into the top 60 for a year or two when players unexpectedly blow up and leave early or something like, so yeah extenuating circumstances. Four straight years, and really 8 straight years and actually like 12 out of 15 years outside the bragging rights zone and the fans (that are left) have every right to be pissed.

I don't lay our troubles at the feet of Prosser. I think he made one mistake, not preparing for the early departure of CP3, but he was on the road to recovering from that mistake when he suddenly died. I lay the root of all our troubles at the feet of Ron Wellman. I think Wellman has made one good decision for Wake Basketball (hiring Prosser) out of 5 times that he needed to make a big decision about Wake Basketball. This mess that we are in is entirely Wellman's fault. Well, ok maybe Jones killing a guy in New York is not Wellman's fault, but everything else is.
Click to expand...

My count has Wellman with seven decisions regarding Wake head basketball coach. and sorta an eighth.

1. Let Dave Odom leave/not renew contract
2. Hire Skip Processor
3. Hire Dino Gaudio as permanent HC immediately
4. Fire Gaudio
5. Hire Jeff [Redacted]
6. Fire Jeff [Redacted]
7. Hire Danny Manning
8. Retain/extend Danny Manning.

With 20/20 hindsight, only two of these look like really good decisions. Some are bad, and some are still being debated.
 
Deaconblue said:
My count has Wellman with seven decisions regarding Wake head basketball coach. and sorta an eighth.

1. Let Dave Odom leave/not renew contract
2. Hire Skip Processor
3. Hire Dino Gaudio as permanent HC immediately
4. Fire Gaudio
5. Hire Jeff [Redacted]
6. Fire Jeff [Redacted]
7. Hire Danny Manning
8. Retain/extend Danny Manning.

With 20/20 hindsight, only two of these look like really good decisions. Some are bad, and some are still being debated.
Click to expand...

Only one of those decisions, #2, was objectively good. All the others are/were objectively bad or at best debatable.
 
birdman said:
Pretty excited that I am permitted to have my own opinion on these boards.

I'd just add the addendum that the occasional season in the shitter (i.e. 40 - 100 rank) is ok if it's not the norm. We fans can maintain satisfaction with the program through one or two bad season if the norm is top 25 and we dip into the top 60 for a year or two when players unexpectedly blow up and leave early or something like, so yeah extenuating circumstances. Four straight years, and really 8 straight years and actually like 12 out of 15 years outside the bragging rights zone and the fans (that are left) have every right to be pissed.

I don't lay our troubles at the feet of Prosser. I think he made one mistake, not preparing for the early departure of CP3, but he was on the road to recovering from that mistake when he suddenly died. I lay the root of all our troubles at the feet of Ron Wellman. I think Wellman has made one good decision for Wake Basketball (hiring Prosser) out of 5 times that he needed to make a big decision about Wake Basketball. This mess that we are in is entirely Wellman's fault. Well, ok maybe Jones killing a guy in New York is not Wellman's fault, but everything else is.
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80
102

73
24
58

259
211
137
118

120
118
36
89
 
thatguy2016 said:
you said he met or exceeded expectations, and then you doubled down on that. go read this again and all your supporting arguments to refresh:
Click to expand...

As I said, I’m not sure I ever said “exceeded expectations” specifically referring to Manning’s first two seasons. I’m pretty sure I’ve always maintained that Manning met expectations in years 1 and 2 and exceeded expectations on the court in year 3 (which can be shortened to “met or exceeded expectations through 3 seasons . . .).
 
Deaconblue said:
My count has Wellman with seven decisions regarding Wake head basketball coach. and sorta an eighth.

1. Let Dave Odom leave/not renew contract
2. Hire Skip Processor
3. Hire Dino Gaudio as permanent HC immediately
4. Fire Gaudio
5. Hire Jeff [name redacted]
6. Fire Jeff [name redacted]
7. Hire Danny Manning
8. Retain/extend Danny Manning.

With 20/20 hindsight, only two of these look like really good decisions. Some are bad, and some are still being debated.
Click to expand...

1. Nudging Odom out the door was the right move at the time and was almost universally praised by the fan base. Odom was a good coach, but his recruiting had gone downhill, and he had completely lost that last team. I was at that ACC Tourney game against MD.

2. Hiring Skip was a great decision. Hiring Beilein would have been even better in retrospect.

3. Almost had to. Couldn't promote Battle at that time, and if you make Dino interim, he has no recruiting class, and you must hire a whole new staff. Just bad timing.

4. Fired Dino at least 1 year too early because he had been to 2 NCAAs in 3 years. It was a black eye on the school in the eyes of other college coaches, and it hurt the replacement hiring process.

5-6. Hired the worst coach in the history of the sport and kept him 4 years, while lying to the fan base. Should have fired him after year 2.

7-8. Manning wasn't my 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice, but I liked the hire at the time. Boy was I wrong.
 
birdman said:
Only one of those decisions, #2, was objectively good. All the others are/were objectively bad or at best debatable.
Click to expand...

So in your opinion it was a bad or debatable decision to fire Jeff [Redacted]?
 
RChildress107 said:
As I said, I’m not sure I ever said “exceeded expectations” specifically referring to Manning’s first two seasons. I’m pretty sure I’ve always maintained that Manning met expectations in years 1 and 2 and exceeded expectations on the court in year 3 (which can be shortened to “met or exceeded expectations through 3 seasons . . .).
Click to expand...

yeah

that's why I've been referring to you as having said "met or exceeded expectations"

to claim that a 2-16, #118 season with an 11-game losing streak and several double-digit home losses "meets expectations" in year 2 of a coaching regime (especially when one considers the specifics in play here) is a stupid argument
 
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