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Down Goes Silent Sam

The Weather Underground absolutely were terrorists. They were evil murderers and should have been treated as such.

I'm not sure if WU or Posse Comitatus Constitutionally reach treason or traitors as neither engaged the military, but they and other such groups were terrorists.
 
So you consider members of The Weather Underground as treasonous and traitors, correct?

Or so does this rationale only apply when the political ideology of the treasonous traitors differs from your "moderate" views?

i forget, did the weather underground form a separate government, issue currency and form a standing army?
 
i forget, did the weather underground form a separate government, issue currency and form a standing army?

I'm pretty sure they at least have a website that gives you the weather.
 
So is Brad saying that he would support a monument to weather underground members who died in furtherance of their cause on the grounds of a public university? I sure wouldn't. His whataboutism games are so tired.
 
If you’re trying to analogize a confederate monument to any other type of monument in America you should stop. Now.
 
If you’re trying to analogize a confederate monument to any other type of monument in America you should stop. Now.

Really? What about monuments to Brigham Young, who as governor of Utah issued an extermination order for all Timpanogos in the Utah Valley, killing and capturing a few hundred of them?

What about monuments to Nathaniel Lyon, a Union general killed in the Civil War but who also led an attack killing roughly 100 Pomos in California?

What about all of the monuments to George Armstrong Custer, who is responsible for killing thousands of Native Americans?

What about monuments to FDR, who ordered the internment of oh just 100,000 Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor?

You don't find any of these monuments analogous in any way to confederate monuments? Should I keep going or stop? Now? Later? When?
 
i forget, did the weather underground form a separate government, issue currency and form a standing army?

So I assume you consider Native American tribes to be treasonous traitors under your definition, correct? So are you leading the charge to take down monuments on reservations?
 
Really? What about monuments to Brigham Young, who as governor of Utah issued an extermination order for all Timpanogos in the Utah Valley, killing and capturing a few hundred of them?

What about monuments to Nathaniel Lyon, a Union general killed in the Civil War but who also led an attack killing roughly 100 Pomos in California?

What about all of the monuments to George Armstrong Custer, who is responsible for killing thousands of Native Americans?

What about monuments to FDR, who ordered the internment of oh just 100,000 Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor?

You don't find any of these monuments analogous in any way to confederate monuments? Should I keep going or stop? Now? Later? When?

So I assume you consider Native American tribes to be treasonous traitors under your definition, correct? So are you leading the charge to take down monuments on reservations?

Good people on both sides.
 
So I assume you consider Native American tribes to be treasonous traitors under your definition, correct? So are you leading the charge to take down monuments on reservations?

This is a joke, right?
 
No it doesn't.
 
I think there is a very strong argument to be made that the connected history of slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow, and ongoing systemic racism are one of the most important, and perhaps the most important and defining, aspect of American history. It impacts more people over a longer period of time than any other issue you can name, certainly more and longer than anything 2&2 listed.

The only thing that even comes close is the eradication of the American Indians. I would argue that the country has done a lot more to reckon with that legacy than it has with slavery. For example, The Battle of Little Bighorn National Monument used to be the Custer National Monument. That was changed in 2003 and a memorial to the tribes was added, along with interpretation from the native perspective. Compare that to how Southern legislatures deal with Confederate memorials. They refuse to even acknowledge the issue and insist everything has to stay as-is because "history".
 
I think there is a very strong argument to be made that the connected history of slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow, and ongoing systemic racism are one of the most important, and perhaps the most important and defining, aspect of American history. It impacts more people over a longer period of time than any other issue you can name, certainly more and longer than anything 2&2 listed.

The only thing that even comes close is the eradication of the American Indians. I would argue that the country has done a lot more to reckon with that legacy than it has with slavery. For example, The Battle of Little Bighorn National Monument used to be the Custer National Monument. That was changed in 2003 and a memorial to the tribes was added, along with interpretation from the native perspective. Compare that to how Southern legislatures deal with Confederate memorials. They refuse to even acknowledge the issue and insist everything has to stay as-is because "history".

Not really though. Yes, there is more acknowledgement of the truth and mistreatment of the American Indians, but at the same time, we've done nothing about the erasure of a people. Most people believe that the country did horrible things to the American Indians and wiped them out (that they used to live here, etc.), but little is done to acknowledge the current state of American Native Peoples and the issues they face and the way they are still treated today.

There is acknowledgement of the country's sin (much like with slavery), but there is the same disconnect between that and the effect it has on people today (the "why can't Black people get over slavery" crowd).

There are still many monuments in historical settings that misrepresent the conquest of America (hell, the whole Thanksgiving holiday is all about this) in much the same way confederate memorials do.
 
Not really though. Yes, there is more acknowledgement of the truth and mistreatment of the American Indians, but at the same time, we've done nothing about the erasure of a people. Most people believe that the country did horrible things to the American Indians and wiped them out (that they used to live here, etc.), but little is done to acknowledge the current state of American Native Peoples and the issues they face and the way they are still treated today.

There is acknowledgement of the country's sin (much like with slavery), but there is the same disconnect between that and the effect it has on people today (the "why can't Black people get over slavery" crowd).

well said.
 
Really? What about monuments to Brigham Young, who as governor of Utah issued an extermination order for all Timpanogos in the Utah Valley, killing and capturing a few hundred of them?

What about monuments to Nathaniel Lyon, a Union general killed in the Civil War but who also led an attack killing roughly 100 Pomos in California?

What about all of the monuments to George Armstrong Custer, who is responsible for killing thousands of Native Americans?

What about monuments to FDR, who ordered the internment of oh just 100,000 Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor?

You don't find any of these monuments analogous in any way to confederate monuments? Should I keep going or stop? Now? Later? When?

Which of these are monuments to individuals who fought against America for the right to leave the United States?
 
Not really though. Yes, there is more acknowledgement of the truth and mistreatment of the American Indians, but at the same time, we've done nothing about the erasure of a people. Most people believe that the country did horrible things to the American Indians and wiped them out (that they used to live here, etc.), but little is done to acknowledge the current state of American Native Peoples and the issues they face and the way they are still treated today.

There is acknowledgement of the country's sin (much like with slavery), but there is the same disconnect between that and the effect it has on people today (the "why can't Black people get over slavery" crowd).

There are still many monuments in historical settings that misrepresent the conquest of America (hell, the whole Thanksgiving holiday is all about this) in much the same way confederate memorials do.

As I said, the Indian issue is the only thing that comes close to slavery et. al., for many of the reasons you posted. I.e. the internment of 100,000 Japanese Americans was bad, but not even remotely in the same category as slavery and the massacre of natives. So to equate FDR statues with Silent Sam is silly.

There is also the simple matter that there are really very few monuments to "heroes" of the Indian wars per se. There are only a couple of Custer monuments, and the one at Bighorn has been balanced/reinterpreted. Nathaniel Lyons has some streets named after him. These memorials are also not generally sited on courthouse squares in the middle of Indian territory. There is a big difference between the veneration of the rebels on courthouse squares throughout the South, generally done during Jim Crow and generally sited in places where they reinforce white supremacy, and the few scattered memorials to obscure Indian fighters. If there was a statue of a notorious Indian murderer on the square at UNC-Pembroke, that would be comparable to Silent Sam maybe. I'm not saying there aren't any of these out there, I'm sure there are some. I am saying that it's a whole different scope of a problem.

The non-profit Southern Poverty Law Center asserts in a 2016 report that there are “718 [Confederate] monuments and statues, nearly 300 of which are in Georgia, Virginia or North Carolina; 109 public schools named for Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis or other Confederate icons…and 10 U.S. military bases named for Confederates.”
https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/confederate-monuments

I am not aware that monuments to Indian fighters are nearly so widespread, unless you want to count monuments to the Founding Fathers. Even if you did, these monuments were not generally erected to celebrate white supremacy and the subjugation of Indians.

I agree that much more needs to be done to improve the current conditions prevailing on the American Indian population.
 
So I assume you consider Native American tribes to be treasonous traitors under your definition, correct? So are you leading the charge to take down monuments on reservations?

Awesome. Kick him in the back of his pants where he so desperately needs a hard boot.
 
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