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Down Goes Silent Sam

Traitor: "a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc."

So attempting to secede from the United States to form your own country and fighting a war against the United States does not constitute a betrayal of country? Right.
 
I still feel awful about the way we betrayed King George and the British.
 
When you win the war you're revolutionaries when you lose the war you're traitors.
 
People are still all Southern pride about the confederacy? good lord Fuck the Southerners who hang on to all that phony "suthun" shit. It's the lamest cultural segment of the United States. Its so fucking phony and ridiculous, even when you separate out the racism. All that yuckity yuckin' about Southern this and that, and pride blah blah. Shut the fuck up, you are an American. pull yourself together
 
Traitor: "a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc."

So attempting to secede from the United States to form your own country and fighting a war against the United States does not constitute a betrayal of country? Right.

I feel like we've (the boards as a whole) had this same argument over and over.

To whom were "all Confederate Soldiers and leaders" traitors? By the definition that you have cited (which I agree is a good vanilla definition of the word "traitor"), General George H. Thomas -- a Virginian who fought for the Union -- was a traitor. In remaining loyal to the United States, he betrayed his home, family and friends. On the flip side, in renouncing their loyalty to the United States, Confederates remained loyal to their homes, family and friends.

Under this same definition, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Nathanael Greene, Francis Marion, etc., etc. were all traitors. It is all a matter of the perspective or lens that you choose to look through. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor?
 
Really? What about monuments to Brigham Young, who as governor of Utah issued an extermination order for all Timpanogos in the Utah Valley, killing and capturing a few hundred of them?

What about monuments to Nathaniel Lyon, a Union general killed in the Civil War but who also led an attack killing roughly 100 Pomos in California?

What about all of the monuments to George Armstrong Custer, who is responsible for killing thousands of Native Americans?

What about monuments to FDR, who ordered the internment of oh just 100,000 Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor?

You don't find any of these monuments analogous in any way to confederate monuments? Should I keep going or stop? Now? Later? When?

Okay, take them all down. I’m convinced.
 
19deac92, see CL’s post above.
 
I feel like we've (the boards as a whole) had this same argument over and over.

To whom were "all Confederate Soldiers and leaders" traitors? By the definition that you have cited (which I agree is a good vanilla definition of the word "traitor"), General George H. Thomas -- a Virginian who fought for the Union -- was a traitor. In remaining loyal to the United States, he betrayed his home, family and friends. On the flip side, in renouncing their loyalty to the United States, Confederates remained loyal to their homes, family and friends.

Under this same definition, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Nathanael Greene, Francis Marion, etc., etc. were all traitors. It is all a matter of the perspective or lens that you choose to look through. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor?

Are there many statues to those folks in England right now?
 
I think it’s crazy that 2&2 is taking such a radical stance against one of the most beloved presidents of all time. It’s very mdmh/MHB of him.
 
I feel like we've (the boards as a whole) had this same argument over and over.

To whom were "all Confederate Soldiers and leaders" traitors? By the definition that you have cited (which I agree is a good vanilla definition of the word "traitor"), General George H. Thomas -- a Virginian who fought for the Union -- was a traitor. In remaining loyal to the United States, he betrayed his home, family and friends. On the flip side, in renouncing their loyalty to the United States, Confederates remained loyal to their homes, family and friends.

Under this same definition, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Nathanael Greene, Francis Marion, etc., etc. were all traitors. It is all a matter of the perspective or lens that you choose to look through. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor?

general george h thomas is not a traitor in your example.

in england i imagine all the revolutionaries are considered traitors. as they should
 
They literally were traitors by the definition of the word.

Don't you know to lectro and Confederate apologists the actual words in the Constitution only matter in the 2nd Amendment. The fact that the Confederacy's treason is clearly and concisely defined in the Constitution is irrelevant to them.

It couldn't be any clearer.
 
I feel like we've (the boards as a whole) had this same argument over and over.

To whom were "all Confederate Soldiers and leaders" traitors? By the definition that you have cited (which I agree is a good vanilla definition of the word "traitor"), General George H. Thomas -- a Virginian who fought for the Union -- was a traitor. In remaining loyal to the United States, he betrayed his home, family and friends. On the flip side, in renouncing their loyalty to the United States, Confederates remained loyal to their homes, family and friends.

Under this same definition, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Nathanael Greene, Francis Marion, etc., etc. were all traitors. It is all a matter of the perspective or lens that you choose to look through. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor?

Being disloyal to your state, when your state is part of a country, is not being a traitor. Using your stretch logic, if you betray your mate you are a traitor. That's a very loose definition.

It's puzzling to me that so many who allegedly believe in a literal interpretation of the Constitution would defy a black letter definition.

There's no question that the Founding Fathers were traitors to England. There is no reasonable argument that they weren't. Benedict Arnold was a traitor to America because of the oath he swore to it.
 
I feel like we've (the boards as a whole) had this same argument over and over.

To whom were "all Confederate Soldiers and leaders" traitors? By the definition that you have cited (which I agree is a good vanilla definition of the word "traitor"), General George H. Thomas -- a Virginian who fought for the Union -- was a traitor. In remaining loyal to the United States, he betrayed his home, family and friends. On the flip side, in renouncing their loyalty to the United States, Confederates remained loyal to their homes, family and friends.

Under this same definition, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Nathanael Greene, Francis Marion, etc., etc. were all traitors. It is all a matter of the perspective or lens that you choose to look through. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor?

Yes these people were all traitors to their country. I didn't realize this was controversial or novel.
 
Just put up a giant sign in front of these monuments saying, "This monument was erected by the racist mother fuckers ______________________________ for the sole purpose of propping up their fragile egos because they could no dehumanize people based on their skin color through slavery and had to find another way to be assholes."
 
The party of Lincoln defends the confederacy over 150 years after they lost an unjust war for slavery without a shred of shame.
 
The party of Lincoln defends the confederacy over 150 years after they lost an unjust war for slavery without a shred of shame.

The party of Lincoln was farther to the left than the DNC is today.
 
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