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Democrats : 3 Rungs Lower Than Whale Shit

Another issue that isn't as simple as some say is bail. There's no question that tens of thousands of people in jail for non-violent offenses who can't afford bail and are no real threat. However, there's no reason not to have bail for physical abusers, killers and other violent crimes.

Banning the box sounds great at first brush and some form of it should happen. But doesn't an employer who is hiring an accountant have the right to know if a person has been convicted of embezzlement? Does a trucking company need to know the person they are hiring had been convicted of multiple DUIs?

Yes, the generic box needs to go. There's no reason for it in many cases, but there are some where it is fair.

Again, these the nuances missed by our DSA brethren.
 
It’s almost like you google shit and pretend to be an expert
 
MHBDemon said:
It’s almost like you google shit and pretend to be an expert
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You ask for a response and I give you one. Rather than addressing what I have said many times, you have to be snarky.

You purport to wanting to have a discussion, but when one is offered that requires a little thought, you immediately dismiss it.
 
You actually haven’t provided anything new or interesting. “Bail is bad but some bail is good” is not an argument
 
MHBDemon said:
You actually haven’t provided anything new or interesting. “Bail is bad but some bail is good” is not an argument
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It's a position. I realize it's not the Black&White position you take about issues, but it is a totally valid position. It's one that moves bar towards fairness and makes it easier to go down the road.

You didn't mention anything else. You don't want to have a discussion. You won't come off you positions of purity. When you want to make massive changes, you have to move the ball.
 
Im driving 3 hours home. There is plenty in this thread for you to engage with. But instead you do this song and dance where you say a whole lot without saying anything. I’ll be home later.
 
I'm heading out to see the movie named after me -White Boy Rick. When I first moved to CA, I was doing a lot with black musicians and business. To them, I was either Philly Rick or White Boy Rick.
 
Decriminalization and sentencing reform is about the best you could possibly hope to achieve in any sort of near future. You may view those as "lukewarm", but in reality, those would be huge victories for progressives.
 
Bail, in general, is bad.
 
RJKarl said:
Should there be more cops in some places like gang-ridden places in Chicago? Possibly.
Should there be more cops here in Huntington Beach? Probably not, we have an incredibly low crime rate.
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So close, yet so far away.

Go read Chris Hayes' book "A Colony in a Nation." He talks specifically about two americas. One where he can get marijuana through the security check at a GOP national convention and where rich kids go to college and are free to use drugs, engage in many forms of sexual abuse, and colleges have a process of adjudicating wrongs (though still very flawed in regards to sexual assault) that doesn't criminalize and incarcerate them.

He contrasts that America with one where black and brown people are hyper policed, and profiled everyday for driving while black, walking while black, etc. The implication should be obvious from the title.

In "The War on Neighborhoods," the authors profile a Chicago neighborhood called Austin.

Since the 1970s, imprisonment has been the fastest growing of all public investments in Illinois...

Unlike funding for youth or workforce development, approaches that seek to prepare individuals for successful, independent living in the world, dollars spent on imprisonment demand that society keeps pouring money into jails and prisons for the long haul, requiring constant reallocations.
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In St. Louis, Josh Williams is serving an 8 year sentencing for destroying roughly $25 in property. What is the cost to incarcerate him for 8 years, vs. the $25?

Back to Austin:

in the Austin neighborhood, each year, on average the state commits to spending over $100 million over the life of prison sentences of adults. This is a massive sum poured into management and monitoring, rather than addressing the underlying needs and providing meaningful supports to promote behavior change. By comparison, the total dollar figure of all grants from the Illinois State Department of Human Services to the Austin community was just over $6 million in 2016, and Chicago's signature youth violence prevention initiative, Get IN Chicago, committed to invest $40 million over multiple years to fund violence prevention programs for the entire city.
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Globally, there is little precedent for the U.S.'s incredible reliance on prisons. At any given time, Chicago's Austin area has more people behind bars than several small countries combined. Incarceration rates on Chicago's West Side are ten times that of Russia (442 per 100,000), which is among the top jailers on earth.
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You all fail to recognize that "reform" is exactly what got us to this point. Leftist criticisms of the prison industrial complex don't say that the system is broken and needs fixing. We say that the system is working exactly as intended and should be abolished.

It's great to hear RJ and ChrisL mock my positions as dumb or naive, when I've literally spent the past 2-3 years of my life researching and reading about mass incarceration. When RJ says that democrats have been at the forefront of prison reform, it completely ignores the contributions of leftists like Angela Davis or Ruth Wilson Gilmore, of groups like SONG and Critical Resistance, of activists like Assatta's Daughters or Movement for Black Lives, and the work of bond funds.

If you want to keep engaging in the debate, I can start a new thread. It'd be great without the bullshit "most people grow out of their idealism in sophomore year" takes from Mr. Centrist or the "your just like Trump" takes from Mr. Boomer.
 
RJKarl said:
Should there be more cops in some places like gang-ridden places in Chicago? Possibly.
Should there be more cops here in Huntington Beach? Probably not, we have an incredibly low crime rate.
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lol at this pure uncut Democratic justice reform
 
MHBDemon said:
I'm sorry. Am I supposed to believe you are interest in having a good faith discussion? Fuck off.
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I would think that supporting drug decriminalization would be some sort of common ground. It would be a hell of a lot better than what we have right now, and frankly, even that is a pipe dream under our current political reality.

I get that you are passionate about this, but continued outrage isn't going to get you anywhere
 
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ChrisL68 said:
I would think that supporting drug decriminalization would be some sort of common ground. It would be a hell of a lot better than what we have right now, and frankly, even that is a pipe dream under our current political reality.

I get that you are passionate about this, but continued outrage isnt' going to get you anywhere.
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I support drug decriminalization. Yay, common ground! I'm also not naive enough to believe that it alone, or sentencing reform, will get us anywhere close to ending mass incarceration. Love being lectured about the limits of our current political reality, when Trump is president and everyone is cheerleading for one of the architects of mass incarceration to run for President.
 
MHBDemon said:
I support drug decriminalization. Yay, common ground! I'm also not naive enough to believe that it alone, or sentencing reform, will get us anywhere close to ending mass incarceration. Love being lectured about the limits of our current political reality, when Trump is president and everyone is cheerleading for one of the architects of mass incarceration to run for President.
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I would just like to see the numbers start coming down for a start.
 
oh

One episode in particular sums up Biden’s record. In September 1989, George H. W. Bush delivered a speech outlining his National Drug Control Strategy, in which he called for harsher punishments for drug dealers, nearly $1.5 billion toward drug-related law enforcement, and “more prisons, more jails, more courts, more prosecutors” at every level throughout the country. At the time, the Heritage Foundation gushed that it constituted “the largest increase in resources for law enforcement in the nation’s history,” and it’s now remembered as a key moment in the escalation of the “war on drugs.”

For Biden, however, it was a half-measure.

“Quite frankly, the President’s plan is not tough enough, bold enough, or imaginative enough to meet the crisis at hand,” Biden said in a televised response to Bush’s speech. “In a nutshell, the President’s plan does not include enough police officers to catch the violent thugs, enough prosecutors to convict them, enough judges to sentence them, or enough prison cells to put them away for a long time.”
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https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/biden-crime-mass-incarceration-police-prisons
 
Using things that happened 30 years ago is totally dishonest.

Why don't you talk about Biden's creating the Violence Against Women Act? Or how he and Diane Feinstein wrote the law that took assault weapons out of stores and gun shows for over a decade?

Hell, when I was at Wake there were under 20 Jews on campus. I would guess 2-4 frats would even invite a Jew to a party. Should we say that's the way it is today?

How about the guy who has a show on CNN about how he used to be a Neo-Nazi but now he helps people escape that and turn their lives around?

I have a friend named Kerry Noble. There was a time that he was one of the most dangerous people in America. He was a godfather of terrorism and racism. He trained some of the worst of the worst in RW militias and hate groups. But then, he had an epiphany. Since the late-90s, he has been helping fight his former allies in spite a bounty on his life.

About ten years before OKC, Kerry, Wayne Snell and two others were on their way to blow up the Murrah Building when their car broke down. In fact, Tim McVeigh corresponded with Snell (who was on death row) before blowing up the same target. The CBC had a 60 Minutes type show that Snell saying, "thanks guys" upon hearing about OKC.

Is Kerry the guy who had multiple 55-gallon drums of cyanide on the CSA's Arkansas farm waiting kill people or the people who has spent over two decades fighting racism and hate? Is he the guy who wanted to blow up the Murrah Building or the guy who worked with Jewish and black groups to tell what to look for in hate groups?

Your repeated use of actions that happened decades ago shows weakness and has no value to where people stand today.
 
RJKarl said:
Using things that happened 30 years ago is totally dishonest.

Why don't you talk about Biden's creating the Violence Against Women Act? Or how he and Diane Feinstein wrote the law that took assault weapons out of stores and gun shows for over a decade?

Hell, when I was at Wake there were under 20 Jews on campus. I would guess 2-4 frats would even invite a Jew to a party. Should we say that's the way it is today?

How about the guy who has a show on CNN about how he used to be a Neo-Nazi but now he helps people escape that and turn their lives around?

I have a friend named Kerry Noble. There was a time that he was one of the most dangerous people in America. He was a godfather of terrorism and racism. He trained some of the worst of the worst in RW militias and hate groups. But then, he had an epiphany. Since the late-90s, he has been helping fight his former allies in spite a bounty on his life.

About ten years before OKC, Kerry, Wayne Snell and two others were on their way to blow up the Murrah Building when their car broke down. In fact, Tim McVeigh corresponded with Snell (who was on death row) before blowing up the same target. The CBC had a 60 Minutes type show that Snell saying, "thanks guys" upon hearing about OKC.

Is Kerry the guy who had multiple 55-gallon drums of cyanide on the CSA's Arkansas farm waiting kill people or the people who has spent over two decades fighting racism and hate? Is he the guy who wanted to blow up the Murrah Building or the guy who worked with Jewish and black groups to tell what to look for in hate groups?

Your repeated use of actions that happened decades ago shows weakness and has no value to where people stand today.
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What bill was the assault rifle ban in?
 
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