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Melo Eggleston Leaves the Program

RChildress107 said:
You mean the ones who went pro? I thought y’all were criticizing the softball questions.
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You're smarter than that. The question is, why, in year 5, are you only returning 3 scholarship players, losing 7 and bringing in 10? That can't be be explained away by 1.5 transfers a year or a revolving door of 5-star talent. "Coach, why don't the players you recruit actually want to play basketball for you?" Why are you struggling to fill a roster with unrecruited kids from diploma mill schools?
 
mebanedeac said:
The obvious fact was that we had some guys who didn't belong together and probably some who didn't belong on an ACC team. Given the upheaval that has lasted now for 7 or 8 years, the turnover is not completely shocking even though it is exceptional and less than ideal.
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And yet he continues to fill the team with players that probably don't belong on an ACC team. This year alone we have recruits ranked 276, 295, 369 and 419. Sharone Wright and Jamie Lewis are ranked right around where Melo was at 275, and he was part of a class with Sarr at 222 and Okeke at 529. Rich Wash was 215, Mitchell was 269 (again, right in that range of Melo, and right where Wright and Lewis are). Mitchell and Melo "probably didn't belong on an ACC team", but people are expecting freshman Wright and Lewis to be big contributors? Maybe they will, but chances seem pretty slim.
 
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RacerDeac said:
And yet he continues to fill the team with players that probably don't belong on an ACC team. This year alone we have recruits ranked 276, 295, 369 and 419. Sharone Wright and Jamie Lewis are ranked right around where Melo was at 275, and he was part of a class with Sarr at 222 and Okeke at 529. Rich Wash was 215, Mitchell was 269 (again, right in that range of Melo, and right where Wright and Lewis are).
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I am all about recruiting rankings... But there are caveats.

Sarr gets a pass due to France. Not like Hoard French... Like not ever playing in the US before coming to Wake Forest French.
Lewis gets a pass due to injury. I doubt he's a Top 60 guy given he lost a couple of years of experience/improvement, but he could be a Top 150 type guy.

I've got nothing for you on the rest of the guys. We need to do better. Though I still hope one of the "longshots" can surprise us this year (Wynn or Wright).
 
DeacsATS said:
I am all about recruiting rankings... But there are caveats.

Sarr gets a pass due to France. Not like Hoard French... Like not ever playing in the US before coming to Wake Forest French.
Lewis gets a pass due to injury. I doubt he's a Top 60 guy given he lost a couple of years of experience/improvement, but he could be a Top 150 type guy.

I've got nothing for you on the rest of the guys. We need to do better. Though I still hope one of the "longshots" can surprise us this year (Wynn or Wright).
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There are certainly exceptions and caveats, but given the success, or lack thereof, thus far, I just don't see much reason to count on them. Many seem bought-in on this class being an upgrade to what we lost, but I'm firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. Maybe they are.
 
RChildress107 said:
Melo makes the 5th Manning recruit to transfer out of the program before graduation (Hudson, SJM, Mitchell, Rich Wash) and the 6th overall (Woods). He’s been here 4 years. I’ll let you do the math.
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1.25? Did I get it right?

Hudson and SJM were dismissed

Mitchell and Woods were rotation players

Rich Wash and Melo were not rotation players.

For me, the guys to focus on who left are Mitchell, Woods, Doral Moore, and Crawford.

Mitchell left despite getting good run his sophomore year and having a sister at Wake. Yes, he was 3,000 miles away, but still. This one was a concern. We have two guys coming in who play some version of his position, so I could see an argument that he felt he was being recruited over, but he would most likely be our starting 4 this year had he stayed. And playing 20+ minutes a game. This one totally on staff

Woods - hard to tell. In some ways, it reminds me of Kawhi Leonard. We have constantly heard reports of Woods' Dad and playing time/usage. Reminds me of Leonard's Uncle. I have a feeling that Woods' Dad is working hard to leverage his son't college career into an immediate pay day playing in Europe. Not a $40,000 a year job in Belgium, but a $250,000 a year job in Italy. Fair enough. There were whispers of problems before Woods got hurt last year. We just couldn't hide his bad defense, either because our staff cannot coach Defense, and/or we didn't have the players to cover his man when he skipped past him. This one is on both Woods and staff.

Moore leaving is all about him wanting to get paid for working so freakin hard to get good. I get it. He was advised by Manning to stay. He didn't. This one is on Moore. I think if Manning was Daddy figure like Coach John Thompson was, he'd have got him to stay for the betterment of his career, but Manning is not John Thompson. He doesn't strike me as the warm and fuzzy mentor at all. He's more lunch pail taciturn. Make me happy today and tomorrow we start afresh. You have to make me happy then too. For some kids, like John Collins, that is easy. For others, like Moore who may want to take a day or two off, maybe it is more difficult. Still this one is on Moore.

Crawford leaving I have to point a finger at Chill. Now, maybe he is conflicted because Craw leaving means more oxygen for his son, but the fact is that Crawford came in a flawed player with a load of borderline NBA talent and left a more experienced, more muscled flawed players with a load of Euro talent. My only positive takeaway is that our strength and conditioning program is elite.
 
RacerDeac said:
There are certainly exceptions and caveats, but given the success, or lack thereof, thus far, I just don't see much reason to count on them. Many seem bought-in on this class being an upgrade to what we lost, but I'm firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. Maybe they are.
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Yeah, that's the big question for this season.

I think it is silly for anyone to think that we've upgraded when we'll be counting on a lot of freshmen and sophomores vs. seniors (Woods/Moore/Crawford).

I do think we'll be better than last year, but I don't think we can be as good as we'd have been if 1-2 of those guys stuck around. Unless chemistry issues trump talent... Which they could, I guess.

I am expecting a huge jump from Brown, a big jump from Sarr, and a special player in Hoard... But even if we get those things, we'll need significant contributions from other folks to be any good in the ACC.
 
Yeah. A "huge jump from Brown, a big jump from Sarr, and a special player in Hoard" won't even get us near the NIT unless several other players step up including freshmen.
 
RacerDeac said:
You're smarter than that. The question is, why, in year 5, are you only returning 3 scholarship players, losing 7 and bringing in 10? That can't be be explained away by 1.5 transfers a year or a revolving door of 5-star talent. "Coach, why don't the players you recruit actually want to play basketball for you?" Why are you struggling to fill a roster with unrecruited kids from diploma mill schools?
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“It’s actually 8. Two went Pro and we wish them success. Two exhausted their eligibility and left Wake with a degree. One was dismissed for not following team rules. One graduated and pursued an educational opportunity Wake didn’t offer. Two players decided they didn’t want to be here. We are looking forward to the season with the guys we have...”

What the fuck do you want him to say? This whole exercise is stupid. Each individual guy either left because of Manning or something else. Who cares. They are gone and Manning’s responsible for dealing with it.

Each individual guy leaving is either going to make us better or worse. Talk about that. No one blames Manning for Collins leaving, but no one gives Manning a pass for sucking last year because Collins left. Would last year’s team have been any worse if Collins came out and said he only went pro because he hates Manning’s guts? Of course not.
 
jaybone said:
1.25? Did I get it right?

Hudson and SJM were dismissed

Mitchell and Woods were rotation players

Rich Wash and Melo were not rotation players.

For me, the guys to focus on who left are Mitchell, Woods, Doral Moore, and Crawford.

Mitchell left despite getting good run his sophomore year and having a sister at Wake. Yes, he was 3,000 miles away, but still. This one was a concern. We have two guys coming in who play some version of his position, so I could see an argument that he felt he was being recruited over, but he would most likely be our starting 4 this year had he stayed. And playing 20+ minutes a game. This one totally on staff

Woods - hard to tell. In some ways, it reminds me of Kawhi Leonard. We have constantly heard reports of Woods' Dad and playing time/usage. Reminds me of Leonard's Uncle. I have a feeling that Woods' Dad is working hard to leverage his son't college career into an immediate pay day playing in Europe. Not a $40,000 a year job in Belgium, but a $250,000 a year job in Italy. Fair enough. There were whispers of problems before Woods got hurt last year. We just couldn't hide his bad defense, either because our staff cannot coach Defense, and/or we didn't have the players to cover his man when he skipped past him. This one is on both Woods and staff.

Moore leaving is all about him wanting to get paid for working so freakin hard to get good. I get it. He was advised by Manning to stay. He didn't. This one is on Moore. I think if Manning was Daddy figure like Coach John Thompson was, he'd have got him to stay for the betterment of his career, but Manning is not John Thompson. He doesn't strike me as the warm and fuzzy mentor at all. He's more lunch pail taciturn. Make me happy today and tomorrow we start afresh. You have to make me happy then too. For some kids, like John Collins, that is easy. For others, like Moore who may want to take a day or two off, maybe it is more difficult. Still this one is on Moore.

Crawford leaving I have to point a finger at Chill. Now, maybe he is conflicted because Craw leaving means more oxygen for his son, but the fact is that Crawford came in a flawed player with a load of borderline NBA talent and left a more experienced, more muscled flawed players with a load of Euro talent. My only positive takeaway is that our strength and conditioning program is elite.
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This conversation needs way more posts like this.
 
Rank the following three. Which is more exciting:

1. Watching a Manning press conference

2. Reading page after page on Manning reign at Wake pros and cons. Positve v. negative. Poster vs. poster

3. Watching this video from start to finish:

 
PhDeac said:
Yeah. A "huge jump from Brown, a big jump from Sarr, and a special player in Hoard" won't even get us near the NIT unless several other players step up including freshmen.
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Near the NIT is a pretty low bar. 2 out of 3 of those things happening could be enough to get us near the NIT.
 
Normal improvement year over year from BChill, Brown and Sarr along with Hoard and Mucius being pretty much as advertised should get Wake NEAR the NIT. But may not be enough to get Wake in the NIT.

Big improvements from all three returning guys plus better than expected from Hoard, Mucius or others would be necessary for Wake to do better than that.
 
Deaconblue said:
Normal improvement year over year from BChill, Brown and Sarr along with Hoard and Mucius being pretty much as advertised should get Wake NEAR the NIT. But may not be enough to get Wake in the NIT.

Big improvements from all three returning guys plus better than expected from Hoard, Mucius or others would be necessary for Wake to do better than that.
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Are you assuming the competition doesn't improve?
 
RChildress107 said:
Near the NIT is a pretty low bar. 2 out of 3 of those things happening could be enough to get us near the NIT.
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"Near the NIT" would be the 2nd best Wake team in the last 9 years.
 
You guys are looking at this too black and white. The question should be regarding nit and ncaa is will chill be any better at getti mg us in scoring positions in the final 5 minutes of games than Crawford was?
 
jaybone said:
You guys are looking at this too black and white. The question should be regarding nit and ncaa is will chill be any better at getti mg us in scoring positions in the final 5 minutes of games than Crawford was?
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That assumes we can stay in games without Craw's (and Moore's) production in the first place.
 
jaybone said:
You guys are looking at this too black and white. The question should be regarding nit and ncaa is will chill be any better at getti mg us in scoring positions in the final 5 minutes of games than Crawford was?
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There were many games that we were in it down the stretch purely because of Crawford.
 
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