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2020 Democratic Presidential Nominees

Strickland33 said:
Again, progressivism and liberalism (let alone moderate conservativism) are political ideologies. It’s okay to believe in tenets of one and not the other. Watering down progressive values to appease moderates and liberals is not a good political strategy. In fact, it goes against every form of organizing that I’ve ever been trained to use. Political organizing is about meeting people in the middle and finding consensus issues. It’s not about converting people to your team.
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I agree. I hope you don't think that's what I'm talking about.

I do think that progressive messages can appeal to people who aren't progressives. It's not like there are walls around ideology.
 
(Can't edit. It's past time to get that fixed.)

Where we probably disagree is that I don't think moderates truly have an ideology. They just don't like most of what they've heard. We just call them moderates because we like to assume people have personal values and concerns that inform their ideology instead of the other way around.
 
PhDeac said:
I agree. I hope you don't think that's what I'm talking about.

I do think that progressive messages can appeal to people who aren't progressives. It's not like there are walls around ideology.
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I’m just reading your posts. Good to know I’m misinterpreting.

There aren’t walls around ideology but I have a hard time believing that moderates could ever become progressives. Liberals, definitely, but progressivism is a rejection of basically every tenet of moderate conservativism. I would hope there aren’t that many bkfs in the world, I guess is my broader point.
 
PhDeac said:
(Can't edit. It's past time to get that fixed.)

Where we probably disagree is that I don't think moderates truly have an ideology. They just don't like most of what they've heard. We just call them moderates because we like to assume people have personal values and concerns that inform their ideology instead of the other way around.
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Aren’t they fiscally conservative and socially liberal by definition?
 
Strickland33 said:
I’m just reading your posts. Good to know I’m misinterpreting.

There aren’t walls around ideology but I have a hard time believing that moderates could ever become progressives. Liberals, definitely, but progressivism is a rejection of basically every tenet of moderate conservativism. I would hope there aren’t that many bkfs in the world, I guess is my broader point.
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When did I say "moderate conservatism?"
 
No. There are people who don't consider themselves to be liberal or conservative. You and a few others define them as conservatives by default.
 
PhDeac said:
No. There are people who don't consider themselves to be liberal or conservative. You and a few others define them as conservatives by default.
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Are you talking about independents? What primary do these people vote in?
 
ConnorEl said:
In NC whichever one we choose.
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Interesting. My impression is that you use moderate to refer to conservative because conservativism is a big tent insofar as they typically vote for the candidate regardless of ideology. Moderates stake their claim on fiscal conservativism, but reject social conservativism.

The left has always been a party of loose factions. The moderate faction has always been the “liberal” faction.

Semantic drift aside, there are liberal and progressive left ideological orientations.

Just because there are a handful (relative to the population) of right defectors to the center left doesn’t mean that there is a moderate liberalism. Liberalism is inherently a centrist ideology, albeit left-leaning rather than right-leaning.
 
Im not sure everyone fits neatly into a particular category.


Of course, everyone not batshit crazy is apparently a “lube”.
 
ConnorEl said:
Im not sure everyone fits neatly into a particular category.


Of course, everyone not batshit crazy is apparently a “lube”.
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Sure, but what do you believe in? What issues move you?

Presumably your constellation of beliefs aligns more or less with a political ideology.
 
Strickland33 said:
Are you talking about independents? What primary do these people vote in?
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If they're Independent or NPA, no primary unless their state allows it. Otherwise, the party they belong to if they vote at all.
 
PhDeac said:
If they're Independent or NPA, no primary unless their state allows it. Otherwise, the party they belong to if they vote at all.
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So, I'm not really sure you could convince folks who are likely independent on the basis of their fiscal conservativism that "fiscally irresponsible" plans like M4A are viable...
 
ConnorEl said:
Oh, it’s possible with good arguments, data, etc.
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I'll believe it when I see it. Hell, liberals aren't even throwing their support by progressive proposals. See, Clinton's "Affordable Healthcare is a Human Right" nonsense statement.
 
Strickland33 said:
I'll believe it when I see it. Hell, liberals aren't even throwing their support by progressive proposals. See, Clinton's "Affordable Healthcare is a Human Right" nonsense statement.
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easy to say when progressives are light on actual policy plans
 
ImTheCaptain said:
easy to say when progressives are light on actual policy plans
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Meh, there are proposals out there. It is easier to teach a kid how to read than to convince y'all to take them seriously, though. M&M have posted links to them before.

ETA: I work in progressive housing policy circles. We come up with very nuanced policy proposals with funding and integration measures and our very liberal municipal government continues to embrace the status quo (that has a lot less data/analysis at its disposal). Folk knowledge is a hard habit to break, especially when part of your ideological orientation is fiscal conservatism.
 
Just got an email from the Kamala campaign asking if I want any 2020 Harris merch -- any takers?
 
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