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Reasonable discussion on illegal immigration

slanders are not arguments, your posts are without merit and have no place in a reasoned discussion

Why won't you answer a direct question?

What would you do with 10-15 million people who are here illegally but whose only (a misdemeanor) is either crossing illegally or overstaying their visas?

Just in case he has me on ignore, would someone please copy this so he can see it. Thanks.
 
On a macro level, I agree. I will say this though (and again, I am far from on expert on that area but probably know a tiny bit more than the average American just from having gone down there and knowing some people down there) - if I am not mistaken, Panama is another country that really didn't have a civil war as well. It seems the most messed up countries down there are the ones that did have major civil wars, all of which the US was VERY involved in. And my sense is the US would still rather tolerate corrupt power structures down there, if those power structures prevent an extreme left turn of their governments.

I’m also no expert. Just been to Nicaragua and Costa Rica about 8 times in the last 5 years. I’ve been trying to get a bird research project started in Nicaragua but gave up during the recent revolt.
 
This should be able to be done remotely, like it is now for business-sponsored visas. In today's technological age, why should people have to show up at a border to start their immigration processing?

How many workers are really being displaced by those arriving at the border? It's more right-wing boogeyman stories.[/QUOTE]

Agree with both. Not sure what the numbers are on the second but it’s nonzero. To me that’s not really an immigration issue and would be remedied by a more progressive economic system but I put it in there nonetheless
 
[/B]

One must be able to control one's borders, otherwise no policy can succeed.

If the visa system is broken, then it needs to be fixed.

During the last amnesty promises were made that in the future immigrants will have to follow the law. Now, here we are. How many times is this empty promise that in the future people will have to follow the law be repeated and broken?

Sure. Controlled but open is the way to go.
 
May have been mentioned but how does a nation like America secure a southern border that runs 2000 miles while maintaining reasonable costs (as in we don’t spend a shit ton of money to secure the border merely to say we did while harming the economy because we are adding fewer workers to the labor force?)
 
May have been mentioned but how does a nation like America secure a southern border that runs 2000 miles while maintaining reasonable costs (as in we don’t spend a shit ton of money to secure the border merely to say we did while harming the economy because we are adding fewer workers to the labor force?)

You are forgetting the northern border and the tens of thousands of miles of border coastline.
 
At $25 million a mile to build a wall, it is a great use of taxpayer money. We could cut Social Security and Medicare to pay for it. Maybe we could even hire Mexican workers contracted by a Chinese company.
 
May have been mentioned but how does a nation like America secure a southern border that runs 2000 miles while maintaining reasonable costs (as in we don’t spend a shit ton of money to secure the border merely to say we did while harming the economy because we are adding fewer workers to the labor force?)

Let everyone in through controlled access points and then a shit ton of drones. If there is no reason to sneak in border security gets a lot easier.
 
sailor still won't say what he wants to do with the 10-15 million people who have lived in America without documentation and whose only crime is a misdemeanor of either crossing illegally or overstaying their visa.

Why won't he answer?
 
I have a really tough time around immigration because I can't make a good moral argument in favor of borders to begin with.
 
Yeah. I’d like to see someone explain why it’s such a big deal. The focus on the southern border tells me it’s more about Mexicans and South Americans than non-US citizens as a whole.
 
Borders mean far less today than they did fifty years ago due to ease of travel and the internet. But it will likely be at least a century or more until they have no use.

There's no excuse for the US, Canada and Mexico not to have massive guest worker programs. These would end most of the "illegal" immigration.

The concept that cartels and other gangs send people across the border illegally is simplistic and moronic. These are multi-million (some multi-billion) dollar organizations. It would be stupid for them to risk sending their employees and management into the US illegally. This is especially true when it is so easy to get them here legally.

Only moronic racists believe that cartels and gangs would do this.
 
The biggest problem with illegal immigration stems from people who enter here with no intention of paying taxes, yet abuse all the systems paid for by the American taxpayer. If there was no monetary incentive to illegal immigration I don't think as many people would care about it.

However, when financial stresses are put on local governments dealing with large illegal immigrant populations, schools who are educating children without receiving the tax dollars from their parents, or hospitals throughout the country having their ED's busy with non-emergency care seeking illegals it stresses the American system in ways that many taxpaying citizens feel is unfair. If the United States were abusing other countries' systems in the same way, I would expect the other countries to take issue with our illegals. Yet, I cannot think of a country where American citizens are entering illegally and receiving benefits without paying for them, while at the same time expecting the citizens of that country to foot the bill.
 
The biggest problem with illegal immigration stems from people who enter here with no intention of paying taxes, yet abuse all the systems paid for by the American taxpayer. If there was no monetary incentive to illegal immigration I don't think as many people would care about it.

However, when financial stresses are put on local governments dealing with large illegal immigrant populations, schools who are educating children without receiving the tax dollars from their parents, or hospitals throughout the country having their ED's busy with non-emergency care seeking illegals it stresses the American system in ways that many taxpaying citizens feel is unfair. If the United States were abusing other countries' systems in the same way, I would expect the other countries to take issue with our illegals. Yet, I cannot think of a country where American citizens are entering illegally and receiving benefits without paying for them, while at the same time expecting the citizens of that country to foot the bill.

The red portion is simply not true. Undocumented people pay tens of billions in Social Security taxes that they will never see a penny of. They pays billions upon billions in property taxes for landlords through their rent. Those with fake IDs also pay billions in federal taxes.

As to the kids in school, millions are American citizens for being born here. As stated above, the families pay real estate taxes (via rent) which pays for schools.

The "monetary incentive" for people to come here is to live the American Dream and build futures for their families.

You basically couldn't be more wrong in your assumptions.
 
Sorry I got really busy at work after posting the original premise. I have read some of the responses and really enjoyed them. I will look to respond to a few next week when I have more time. Really good thoughts.
 
I would argue the biggest issue is businesses hiring illegals undercutting those that don’t on price. It drags down the quality of life for everyone at the bottom if a large portion of businesses in the area don’t have to comply with the minimum wage (certainly the case in Los Angeles)
 
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The red portion is simply not true. Undocumented people pay tens of billions in Social Security taxes that they will never see a penny of. They pays billions upon billions in property taxes for landlords through their rent. Those with fake IDs also pay billions in federal taxes.

As to the kids in school, millions are American citizens for being born here. As stated above, the families pay real estate taxes (via rent) which pays for schools.

The "monetary incentive" for people to come here is to live the American Dream and build futures for their families.

You basically couldn't be more wrong in your assumptions.

How can they pay SS taxes if many illegal immigrants work in cash businesses/work off the books? In many states employers would be fined for employing illegals, so there is no incentive for employers to keep an illegal worker on the books. I've also seen no evidence of people with fake IDs paying federal taxes. If you can cite anywhere that shows illegal immigrants are contributing billions of dollars in federal taxes and social security taxes I'd love to read it. However, I would bet even if a full numerical analysis were achievable (it obviously could never be done) that the numbers would show America takes a net loss on illegal immigration when comparing taxes paid in v. benefits received by illegal immigrants and their families.
 
How can they pay SS taxes if many illegal immigrants work in cash businesses/work off the books? In many states employers would be fined for employing illegals, so there is no incentive for employers to keep an illegal worker on the books. I've also seen no evidence of people with fake IDs paying federal taxes. If you can cite anywhere that shows illegal immigrants are contributing billions of dollars in federal taxes and social security taxes I'd love to read it. However, I would bet even if a full numerical analysis were achievable (it obviously could never be done) that the numbers would show America takes a net loss on illegal immigration when comparing taxes paid in v. benefits received by illegal immigrants and their families.

Most don't work off the books.

Here are a couple of articles about the billions they pay in taxes.

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

https://immigrationforum.org/articl...migrant-tax-contributions-and-spending-power/

Add to these, the rents undocmented people pay do go towards school taxes.

Think about this, how many jobs do 12-15 MILLION people buying food, clothing, etc. create? How many billions in taxes do the people whose jobs these purchases create pay? This is rarely brought up.
 
How can they pay SS taxes if many illegal immigrants work in cash businesses/work off the books? In many states employers would be fined for employing illegals, so there is no incentive for employers to keep an illegal worker on the books. I've also seen no evidence of people with fake IDs paying federal taxes. If you can cite anywhere that shows illegal immigrants are contributing billions of dollars in federal taxes and social security taxes I'd love to read it. However, I would bet even if a full numerical analysis were achievable (it obviously could never be done) that the numbers would show America takes a net loss on illegal immigration when comparing taxes paid in v. benefits received by illegal immigrants and their families.

Conversely, you could show evidence of your claims. This is the thread for rational discussion after all.
 
Most don't work off the books.

Here are a couple of articles about the billions they pay in taxes.

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

https://immigrationforum.org/articl...migrant-tax-contributions-and-spending-power/

Add to these, the rents undocmented people pay do go towards school taxes.

Think about this, how many jobs do 12-15 MILLION people buying food, clothing, etc. create? How many billions in taxes do the people whose jobs these purchases create pay? This is rarely brought up.

Lots of factors to consider here, will have to run more numbers. For example, with rents there is the possibility there is a disproportionate of STAR owners renting to illegal immigrants with large families, hence there would be a loss there. With the ITEP.org report they estimate that 50% of illegals pay taxes, but offer no citation so it seems at best to be a guess. Even if true, the 50% paying taxes could all be single filing illegal immigrants and not large families. Would make sense too if that were the case, because risking only the deportation of yourself is way more sensible then risking the deportation of your spouse or children as well. These two sources are not completely unbiased either. If after doing an extensive fact-checking of all the numbers being reported across various sources it comes out that illegal immigration is a net positive on the American taxpayer I will eat crow. Logically I would be surprised if it did turn out that way, but I can see how I may have overlooked some factors such as increases in sales tax revenue, etc.
 
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