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Would anyone be upset if Manning was fired today.

Ball State Deac said:
Absolutely not. I would rather keep Manning another season than let Wellman hire another BB coach.
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But Wellman is far more secure than Manning. Even if he decided to "retire" this summer, the AD hiring process could potentially leave us stuck with Manning for at least two more seasons.

Far better scenario is to drop Manning ASAP and hire a new coach with others consulting besides Wellman, as occurred with Clawson. Wellman can't be allowed to have sole ownership of the decisions for basketball as he has in the past.
 
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RacerDeac said:
But Wellman is far more secure than Manning. Even if he decided to "retire" this summer, the AD hiring process could potentially leave us stuck with Manning for at least two more seasons.

Far better scenario is to drop Manning ASAP and hire a new coach with others consulting besides Wellman, as occurred with Clawson. Wellman can't be allowed to have sole ownership of the decisions for basketball as he has in the past.
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I keep seeing this notion that we need to replicate the Clawson search, but IMO he wasn't hired because of a "superior" coaching search. Sure he fit the profile....was doing well with a program just under Power 5, had rebuilt several programs at several levels, and was at the perfect point of his career...but he also considered coaching Wake Forest to be his dream job since he was in college. How often do those planets align? That's about as lucky as you can get and a no-brainer hire. I'd love to see that in bball, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.
 
pourdeac said:
I keep seeing this notion that we need to replicate the Clawson search, but IMO he wasn't hired because of a "superior" coaching search. Sure he fit the profile....was doing well with a program just under Power 5, had rebuilt several programs at several levels, and was at the perfect point of his career...but he also considered coaching Wake Forest to be his dream job since he was in college. How often do those planets align? That's about as lucky as you can get and a no-brainer hire. I'd love to see that in bball, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.
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Maybe an unpopular opinion, but frankly, I also think we need some one better than Clawson to take over the Basketball program. No disrespect to him, but the expectations for the two sports are different. Wake fans are pretty happy with 6-8 wins and a middling bowl game per year in football because that's better than we've ever sustained, prior to Grobe's Orange Bowl season. But with Basketball, while we've never won a Natty, for 17 out of 21 years (give or take) we were a top 25 program and for some of those 17 seasons we were a top 5 program. Most fans are craving someone to restore us to that level, and while Clawson is great for Wake Football program, we are not on a trajectory to be a perennial top 25 team / occasion top 5 team.
 
birdman said:
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but frankly, I also think we need some one better than Clawson to take over the Basketball program. No disrespect to him, but the expectations for the two sports are different. Wake fans are pretty happy with 6-8 wins and a middling bowl game per year in football because that's better than we've ever sustained, prior to Grobe's Orange Bowl season. But with Basketball, while we've never won a Natty, for 17 out of 21 years (give or take) we were a top 25 program and for some of those 17 seasons we were a top 5 program. Most fans are craving someone to restore us to that level, and while Clawson is great for Wake Football program, we are not on a trajectory to be a perennial top 25 team / occasion top 5 team.
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I get what you're saying but IMO that's more about what's possible than the coach. 6-8 consistent wins in football, with a break out season >8 once in a while, is kind of the max you could expect at a school like Wake, given size and resources. Being consistently top-25 in bball, with a national title run once in a while, is the max you'd expect to do at Wake, unless you attain blue blood status. Clawson is a guy who consistently maximizes potential. IMO a "bball Clawson" would do the same in bball. He's a lot like Prosser. A good coach will do well here.
 
pourdeac said:
I get what you're saying but IMO that's more about what's possible than the coach. 6-8 consistent wins in football, with a break out season >8 once in a while, is kind of the max you could expect at a school like Wake, given size and resources. Being consistently top-25 in bball, with a national title run once in a while, is the max you'd expect to do at Wake, unless you attain blue blood status. Clawson is a guy who consistently maximizes potential. IMO a "bball Clawson" would do the same in bball. He's a lot like Prosser. A good coach will do well here.
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OK, I agree. Just clarifying that we have and should have higher expectations for the BBall program and coach in terms of wins and national recognition.
 
A great coach who is under the radar is Frank Martin. He built a winner at Kansas St and has tried to build a program at SC, including beating Dook and making it to the Final Four in 2017. He is a very intense coach and has no problem calling out players who he feels aren’t giving 100%. Being an SEC school, SC does not support their men’s basketball team. They rank 4th behind football, baseball and women’s basketball. And it’s a damn shame. I believe he could do great things at WF if given the job
 
No one is saying we need to hire Clawson...only that Wellman doesn't need to have complete control over the search as he always has. Basketball is the only sport where he seems to make decisions while locked into a room by himself. Football was led by Buddie and decided by committee. Olympic sports have heavy involvement and recruitment from alumni. Basketball is the sport where Wellman has said he keeps a short list of potential coaches in his desk.
 
RacerDeac said:
No one is saying we need to hire Clawson...only that Wellman doesn't need to have complete control over the search as he always has. Basketball is the only sport where he seems to make decisions while locked into a room by himself. Football was led by Buddie and decided by committee. Olympic sports have heavy involvement and recruitment from alumni. Basketball is the sport where Wellman has said he keeps a short list of potential coaches in his desk.
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Having a short list of potential coaches is what an AD is supposed to do. I bet Clawson was on such a Wellman list.

I might understand greater involvement making decisions in football because of the resource issue, ie the need to spend large amounts of money to upgrade football facilities, but it's not a committee or Wellman thing, they work together. If that's not happening in bball, then it needs to be. I find it hard to believe he makes unilateral decisions on anything that important. I think our problems in bball are greater than Wellman and have been since Prosser died.
 
pourdeac said:
Having a short list of potential coaches is what an AD is supposed to do. I bet Clawson was on such a Wellman list.
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[name redacted] was on such a Wellman list.

Do you honestly think others were consulted in the hiring of Jeff [Redacted]? Or in the crazy decisions to hire, extend and then fire Gaudio? Any indication that others were involved in helping to find Manning?
 
RacerDeac said:
[name redacted] was on such a Wellman list.

Do you honestly think others were consulted in the hiring of Jeff [Redacted]? Or in the crazy decisions to hire, extend and then fire Gaudio? Any indication that others were involved in helping to find Manning?
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No doubt. No doubt 2 of the 3....extension not so sure. No doubt. These aren't unilateral decisions, they are being made by TPTB. They are guided by Wellman, but others are signing off on them and IMO defining acceptability which has limited the pool of candidates. I'll always believe Dino was fired for non-performance issues.

Bz was probably on other people's lists too. It's just a list of potential candidates.
 
Bz wasn’t on anybody else’s list. He wasn’t mentioned at all for any other jobs.
 
pourdeac said:
No doubt. No doubt 2 of the 3....extension not so sure. No doubt. These aren't unilateral decisions, they are being made by TPTB. They are guided by Wellman, but others are signing off on them and IMO defining acceptability which has limited the pool of candidates. I'll always believe Dino was fired for non-performance issues.

Bz was probably on other people's lists too. It's just a list of potential candidates.
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What list are we talking about?

He was well below .500 at a shit program. Most people had never even heard of him when that was announced IIRC.
 
I appreciate the short to mid term thinking, but we’ve got to get rid of Wellman. And if that means more years of sucking under Manning, fine. Because we are going to suck under whomever Wean hires anyway.

Fire Wellman.
 
PhDeac said:
Bz wasn’t on anybody else’s list. He wasn’t mentioned at all for any other jobs.
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I can’t recall the specific words, but BSU’s AD at the time was shocked Wellman made the hire (given Wellman’s reputation) and described it as a curious hire. He said that if the hire was made from the AFA, then it would have made a little more sense. But he was still shocked by it.

Anyway, anectoal evidence but supports your assertion that redacted was not on anyone’s list.
 
PaddyWF said:
What list are we talking about?

He was well below .500 at a shit program. Most people had never even heard of him when that was announced IIRC.
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I'm not referring to an actual candidate list for an open job, just a list of coaches that an AD will pay attention to...of **potential** candidates. As BallState alludes to, a hire might have made sense from AFA because he was successful there. That made him a coach to keep an eye on and I'm sure others were as well. That's all I'm saying.

I still don't think Wellman is the real problem...its whomever else is calling the shots.
 
RacerDeac said:
But Wellman is far more secure than Manning. Even if he decided to "retire" this summer, the AD hiring process could potentially leave us stuck with Manning for at least two more seasons.

Far better scenario is to drop Manning ASAP and hire a new coach with others consulting besides Wellman, as occurred with Clawson. Wellman can't be allowed to have sole ownership of the decisions for basketball as he has in the past.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that some "insiders" claimed that Wellman was being forced to use a consulting firm or something similar for the last b-ball coach search. That the BOT or some big donors told him that he screwed the Bzz hire up, and that he was not going to be allowed to go it alone again. Not sure how true that was, who it was that claimed that, nor can I guarantee that I truly remember it correctly.
 
Is it crazy that the best case scenario may be for WF to have such a horrible season that DM is canned and Wellman is essentially removed from the next HC search/hire?

I’m trying to understand how this is worse given the circumstances than winning a few conference games in uninspiring fashion.
 
Not crazy. The worst case reasonable scenario was that Hoard would get this team near .500, leave, and then Manning “earn” more seasons and welcomes an underwhelming class.
 
So basically the game plan is to secretly hope that WF loses every remaining game, for DM and RW to be removed from MBB and for Hoard to stay?
 
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