WF's Centers...

Collins is in the NBA now. Really don't care how much credit Manning gets for his development because he can't help WF win games now. More concerned about why Sarr is now in his sophomore year, and lacks any offensive game inside the paint. That includes a move where the 7 footer catches the ball on the low block, pivots and dunks. Just the most elementary stuff.

It is disingenuous not to give DM credit for helping develop Collins from a 3-star recruit to a lottery pick in just 2 years. Come on, folks, that didn't happen apart from coaching. He was helping develop Moore also. Sarr has the athleticism to become a good player, but he has a long way to go. Smart seems to have good moves down low, but does not finish well and moves too slow on defense. Hoard is the best low post player we have. I think that we should start the 3 freshmen plus Brown and Childress.

BTW, admitting that DM has developed big men is not the same as declaring him to be a good HC. Those are 2 very different things.

I was really critical of Sarr's performance in Myrtle Beach and the dire implications it had on the season - but nobody should write him off yet. When Sarr got to Wake I'd say most of the realistic posters saw him as a project that could be really good as a Junior with possible NBA aspirations. Doral was supposed to stay one more year before trying to jump. Sarr would have gotten another year of backup play behind a double-double machine with some sporadic time at the 4. Much better role for him. He'd have been like an 8/5 guy and everyone would think - cool, he's coming along nicely, still hits the occasional 3 and is bulking up, inside game will come later...

Dude was a string bean upon arrival that played like a soft stretch 4. He's obviously worked his ass off to bulk up but it's not unusual for the techniques and skills not to be there yet considering where he was a year ago. He's getting screwed by the situation - it's altering expectations and demands that shouldn't have been on him until next year.

For now you either play him at the 5 in the hope that it develops him quicker, or you let him play more as a stretch 4 and find another answer inside. The first way probably costs you a few losses but maybe pays off come conference play. 2nd play could set you up for a big question mark to start next season. We have no other real talent inside so it's a lose-lose regardless, hence we suck again.

mebanedeac said:

It is disingenuous not to give DM credit for helping develop Collins from a 3-star recruit to a lottery pick in just 2 years. Come on, folks, that didn't happen apart from coaching. He was helping develop Moore also. Sarr has the athleticism to become a good player, but he has a long way to go. Smart seems to have good moves down low, but does not finish well and moves too slow on defense. Hoard is the best low post player we have. I think that we should start the 3 freshmen plus Brown and Childress.

BTW, admitting that DM has developed big men is not the same as declaring him to be a good HC. Those are 2 very different things.

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Sure, if Collins was a lottery pick, which he wasn't.

PhDeac said:

This can't be understated.

Moore averaged 3.8 pts, 2.6 reb in 7.1 min with 65% shooting. Moore played 20 minutes in 2 games and had 19 and 13 in those games.
Sarr averaged 3.6 pts, 3.0 reb in 15.1 min with 35% shooting. Sarr played 20+ minutes in 6 games and never had double figures. A&T was his first double-figure game in his career.

Moore has a limited offense skill set, but it's a nice one to have. He gets offensive rebounds and he knows how to get in position to get entry passes to dunk.

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In fairness, they are different players in different circumstances.

As a frosh, Moore was a fouling machine with zero skills, aside from being large enough to finish close to the basket. He also had zero stamina. We also had Thomas, Collins, & Dinos.
As a frosh, Sarr was a toothpick that showed some athleticism and a decent stroke for someone his size. He was also forced to play a lot of minutes because we only had Moore & TT.

100% agree that Moore fit in very well to the college game from day 1 due to his ability to finish alley oops, dunk follows, and rebound.

The curious thing with them both is their regression in year 2. I know it is still early for Sarr, but it hasn't been pretty. And you'd think his rapport w/ Hoard would help him succeed.

I also wonder what Sarr's position is.

He's clearly not a true 5 in the sense that he still gets pushed around on the boards... But he's not really a stretch 4, either.

I'm sure I've posted it before, but ideally he'd be able to protect the rim (he's shown evidence of being a decent shot blocker), finish in transition (oops/putbacks), and rebound. He's not a guy I think we'll ever want to post up.

birdman said:

Sure, if Collins was a lottery pick, which he wasn't.

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My bad. He should have been

DeacsATS said:

In fairness, they are different players in different circumstances.

As a frosh, Moore was a fouling machine with zero skills, aside from being large enough to finish close to the basket. He also had zero stamina. We also had Thomas, Collins, & Dinos.
As a frosh, Sarr was a toothpick that showed some athleticism and a decent stroke for someone his size. He was also forced to play a lot of minutes because we only had Moore & TT.

100% agree that Moore fit in very well to the college game from day 1 due to his ability to finish alley oops, dunk follows, and rebound.

The curious thing with them both is their regression in year 2. I know it is still early for Sarr, but it hasn't been pretty. And you'd think his rapport w/ Hoard would help him succeed.

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Moore only had one game with more than 3 fouls. He averaged 1.5 fouls in 7.1 minutes. Sarr had 4 games with 4 fouls and fouled out of two games. He averaged 2.5 fouls in 15.1 minutes.

PhDeac said:

Moore only had one game with more than 3 fouls. He averaged 1.5 fouls in 7.1 minutes. Sarr had 4 games with 4 fouls and fouled out of two games. He averaged 2.5 fouls in 15.1 minutes.

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My point wasn't that Moore couldn't stay on the floor because he fouled out of games. He didn't play because he was behind 3 better players. While he was on the floor, he would foul the shit out of anyone that got close to him. I am pretty sure you remember that, since you often comment on how polished Collins was that same year.

Props to him that he turned into a pretty good defensive player his junior year.

And yeah, Sarr has/had a similar fouling issue.

Moore was in a position to be a fouler because he was behind 3 better players. I don't think that's something to knock him about. Moore had 2 and 3 fouls in the two games he played 20 minutes.

birdman said:

Sure, if Collins was a lottery pick, which he wasn't.

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Going from barely a Top 150 player to being the #19 pick NBA is a massive improvement. To not see the exponential improvement is to be willfully blind. To not give Danny major credit for this is ludicrous.

If you didn't see the massive improvement in Doral during his time at Wake and not give Danny any credit is also purely irrational.

I have no idea what the story is with Sarr. At FIBA U 19, he was voted best NBA prospect. He showed flashes of potential last year. It was logical that he would improve similarly. That hasn't happened. Maybe the light will go on soon.

There are lots of things Danny has failed at, but this isn't one of them.

RJKarl said:

Going from barely a Top 150 player to being the #19 pick NBA is a massive improvement. To not see the exponential improvement is to be willfully blind. To not give Danny major credit for this is ludicrous.

If you didn't see the massive improvement in Doral during his time at Wake and not give Danny any credit is also purely irrational.

I have no idea what the story is with Sarr. At FIBA U 19, he was voted best NBA prospect. He showed flashes of potential last year. It was logical that he would improve similarly. That hasn't happened. Maybe the light will go on soon.

There are lots of things Danny has failed at, but this isn't one of them.

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Ok, but he still wasn't a lottery pick. I was just correcting a factual inaccuracy, not saying he sucked or Manning didn't deserve credit.

Danny has brought in at least 10 big men. Collins was the only one that really developed and he showed the most promise from day 1. We all saw the athleticism and post moves. Doral also showed a lot of promise as a freshman and developed on a decent but not spectacular path.

Other guys like Sarr and Mathias have shown no development at all. With the small sample size and only one outlier, the most likely scenario is that Danny is about average in this area of coaching.

Unfortunately, he does not rise to average in any other area.

PhDeac said:

Moore was in a position to be a fouler because he was behind 3 better players. I don't think that's something to knock him about. Moore had 2 and 3 fouls in the two games he played 20 minutes.

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I don’t know what it means to be in position to be a fouler.

Is that like an enforcer in hockey?

Because that’s what his defense looked like in his first season.

And I’m not knocking him about it.

He was very raw his freshman year. He made great improvements. Good for him.

You’ve never heard of a big man described as “5 fouls” before? It means he can be aggressive at the rim with few consequences. He’s not going to play much so it doesn’t matter if he fouls.

PhDeac said:

You’ve never heard of a big man described as “5 fouls” before? It means he can be aggressive at the rim with few consequences. He’s not going to play much so it doesn’t matter if he fouls.

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Gotcha.

Yeah, that wasn't Moore. He was just spastic on D and trying to swat everything.