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Great John Collins Article

If you want to go search through a bunch of threads three years ago be my guest. It beats the ring of common sense. That statement is true of almost any coaching situation in America.

Oh my.

Many of us said early on he wasn’t the answer. You told us it was too early to make that determination. Chastised us, even. You cannot possibly say you were advocating he leave. We all know how this went down, RChill. Really curious why you need to rewrite history, when we all - we all - know your positions. Whom do you think you’re fooling? Yourself?

You’ve put up a valiant fight. You’ll have your own little legacy in the corner of these here rjkarl boards. You’ve made your mark. But you lost. You lost badly. Please don’t make this any worse than it needs to be. Go down with dignity dude.
 
Oh my.

Many of us said early on he wasn’t the answer. You told us it was too early to make that determination. Chastised us, even. You cannot possibly say you were advocating he leave. We all know how this went down, RChill. Really curious why you need to rewrite history, when we all - we all - know your positions. Whom do you think you’re fooling? Yourself?

You’ve put up a valiant fight. You’ll have your own little legacy in the corner of these here rjkarl boards. You’ve made your mark. But you lost. You lost badly. Please don’t make this any worse than it needs to be. Go down with dignity dude.

The answer for what? I chastised everyone for not even attempting to answer that question.

I contended that it was too early to determine he wouldn’t successfully rebuild the program to pre-[Redacted] levels. I ridiculed the internet heroes courageous enough to predict that Manning wouldn’t be our coach K, as if anyone thought otherwise.

I stand by both of those assertions. The earliest anyone could do more than speculate that Manning would fail to return the program to its pre-[Redacted] state (middle of the pack ACC, 8/9 seed territory) was when John Collins left.

And I think all of you know this at some level. It’s why you try so hard to paint Manning’s tenure as similar to [Redacted]’s and refuse to acknowledge even the slightest successes.

Manning was a shitty hire, squandered some meaningless games as he rebuilt the talent level, failed to maximize the potential of our best team since ‘09 while still finishing light years ahead of the previous six years, whiffed big on a crucial recruiting class, recruited/developed at least one NBA player (and likely a few more) and several overseas pros, failed to keep that talent around long enough to cover up for his other deficiencies as a coach; was utterly useless in preventing the wheels from coming off.

That’s the story of Manning’s tenure at Wake. I’ve never tried to tell a different one, as much as y’all like to pretend that i have.
 
I contended that it was too early to determine he wouldn’t successfully rebuild the program to pre-[Redacted] levels. I ridiculed the internet heroes courageous enough to predict that Manning wouldn’t be our coach K, as if anyone thought otherwise.
Strawman. People weren't "courageous" enough to predict he wouldn't become K. We were predicting that he wouldn't be the long-term answer for what we wanted in a coach - someone who was capable of winning the ACC, making a Sweet 16, and whatever could come after that. You don't have to be K to accomplish that.

The long and short of it is this: You are saying we were too early to predict he wouldn't work out, and he didn't work out. So we were correct, and you weren't. I realize that is hard to accept. But however you seek to justify your position, against that very basic statement of fact, is just obfuscation and noise. No one here is buying it, if they ever did. So what are you still peddling? If you're going to leave in March, why not just go? The arguments have been made, and winners and losers have been declared.

You lost, RChill. And in some respects we've all lost. By engaging with you, and by rooting for this program.
 
Strawman. People weren't "courageous" enough to predict he wouldn't become K. We were predicting that he wouldn't be the long-term answer for what we wanted in a coach - someone who was capable of winning the ACC, making a Sweet 16, and whatever could come after that. You don't have to be K to accomplish that.

The long and short of it is this: You are saying we were too early to predict he wouldn't work out, and he didn't work out. So we were correct, and you weren't. I realize that is hard to accept. But however you seek to justify your position, against that very basic statement of fact, is just obfuscation and noise. No one here is buying it, if they ever did. So what are you still peddling? If you're going to leave in March, why not just go? The arguments have been made, and winners and losers have been declared.

You lost, RChill. And in some respects we've all lost. By engaging with you, and by rooting for this program.

Cool. We’ve never disagreed on that.

I’ve been over this before but your logic is missing a step. It’s akin to saying you are certain it’s going to be cold in New York on New Year’s Day 2020. It’s probably going to be cold on New Years Day in New York, but if it is, it doesn’t prove you were right to be certain 11 months out. It would be far more accurate to say “it’s probably going to be cold on New Year’s Day in New York, but there’s a somewhat decent chance it won’t be cold.”

You act like I came on here and told everyone that it was definitely going to be 70 degrees on New Years day in New York and that you were all idiots for thinking otherwise. You can repeat the lie all you want, declare yourself a winner, and go home, but that doesn’t make it so.
 
Cool. We’ve never disagreed on that.

I’ve been over this before but your logic is missing a step. It’s akin to saying you are certain it’s going to be cold in New York on New Year’s Day 2020. It’s probably going to be cold on New Years Day in New York, but if it is, it doesn’t prove you were right to be certain 11 months out. It would be far more accurate to say “it’s probably going to be cold on New Year’s Day in New York, but there’s a somewhat decent chance it won’t be cold.”

You act like I came on here and told everyone that it was definitely going to be 70 degrees on New Years day in New York and that you were all idiots for thinking otherwise. You can repeat the lie all you want, declare yourself a winner, and go home, but that doesn’t make it so.

We had plenty of evidence to see what kind of coach he would be. Early on. “Too early,” you said. But evidently it wasn’t. Because he turned out not to be the answer Wake Forest needed - badly and obviously - which is precisely what we said.

The “RChill is bad at analogies” tag is spot on.

You’re still trying so hard and convincing no one. I mean, no one. So from now till March is like a lame-duck session. Are you still deriving pleasure from this? It’s long past embarrassing. Maybe just resign now?
 
We had plenty of evidence to see what kind of coach he would be. Early on. “Too early,” you said. But evidently it wasn’t. Because he turned out not to be the answer Wake Forest needed - badly and obviously - which is precisely what we said.

The “RChill is bad at analogies” tag is spot on.

You’re still trying so hard and convincing no one. I mean, no one. So from now till March is like a lame-duck session. Are you still deriving pleasure from this? It’s long past embarrassing. Maybe just resign now?

Again, your logic is seriously flawed. It shouldn’t take an analogy, bad or otherwise, to see that.
 
Again, your logic is seriously flawed. It shouldn’t take an analogy, bad or otherwise, to see that.

You're acting as though we were speaking from ignorance. We weren't. Everyone here gave him a chance. But then everyoone here has come to the conclusion that he has to go. The only difference is when we individually arrived at that conclusion.

You want the people who arrived at the correct conclusion sooner to be more wrong than the people who arrived at the correct conclusion later. And you have wanted this to be true desperately, with mountains of words and endless huff-and-puffery.

Your legacy is pointless arguments made in a bizarrely defensive fashion. Well done, message board warrior!
 
if you throw out two years worth of data as "meaningless", even when it's clearly not meaningless, then you can say there was no data
 
if you throw out two years worth of data as "meaningless", even when it's clearly not meaningless, then you can say there was no data

There was data from very early on that Manning likely wasn’t going to be our long term answer or even a guy to get us back to our heights under Skip or Odom. We all saw it. There was also data early on that Manning would be better than [Redacted] (he has been) and could get us back to Dino’s baseline if things broke right. Things didn’t break right, but that doesn’t disprove the previous sentence.
 
You're acting as though we were speaking from ignorance. We weren't. Everyone here gave him a chance. But then everyoone here has come to the conclusion that he has to go. The only difference is when we individually arrived at that conclusion.

You want the people who arrived at the correct conclusion sooner to be more wrong than the people who arrived at the correct conclusion later. And you have wanted this to be true desperately, with mountains of words and endless huff-and-puffery.

Your legacy is pointless arguments made in a bizarrely defensive fashion. Well done, message board warrior!

I just want people to make well-reasoned arguments in support of their position. And yeah, before John Collins left those who gave Manning a 20% chance of getting Wake back to Dino levels were more right than those that gave him a 0% chance, no matter how desperately (and weirdly) you want it to be otherwise.
 
I just want people to make well-reasoned arguments in support of their position. And yeah, before John Collins left those who gave Manning a 20% chance of getting Wake back to Dino levels were more right than those that gave him a 0% chance, no matter how desperately (and weirdly) you want it to be otherwise.

If after watching a coach perform at all aspects of his job for a time, Person A gives him 0% chance of succeeding, and Person B disagreed with that, so be it. It's just a difference of opinion. But you, Person B, couldn't let Person A have his opinion based on his own analysis of the evidence, and yes desperately and weirdly kept insisting that his determination was not correct. Like out of nowhere a bunch of us Person A's started getting shit on by you. It was, and continues to be, just bizarre.

When the Person A's prove to be right, that this lousy coach sure enough had 0% chance of being our long-term answer, but Person B still can't leave well enough alone, then it's time for Person B to do some self-examination.

You had more faith in Manning for a longer period than I did. Do you recall me telling you that this was an impermissible viewpoint? No. I just arrived at my reasonable viewpoint. Yet that's what you did with us - every time I logged onto these boards and complained about this guy WE'RE ALL NOW COMPLAINING ABOUT INCLUDING YOU, you told me I couldn't have logically arrived at this position and thus I must refrain from espousing it. Only when YOU had decided we could all complain about Manning was it finally okay to do so.

The arrogance, man, even when you've been proven wrong. Undeserved arrogance. It's such a lousy way to go through life. What are you going to do with all your free time BTW?
 
If after watching a coach perform at all aspects of his job for a time, Person A gives him 0% chance of succeeding, and Person B disagreed with that, so be it. It's just a difference of opinion. But you, Person B, couldn't let Person A have his opinion based on his own analysis of the evidence, and yes desperately and weirdly kept insisting that his determination was not correct. Like out of nowhere a bunch of us Person A's started getting shit on by you. It was, and continues to be, just bizarre.

When the Person A's prove to be right, that this lousy coach sure enough had 0% chance of being our long-term answer, but Person B still can't leave well enough alone, then it's time for Person B to do some self-examination.

You had more faith in Manning for a longer period than I did. Do you recall me telling you that this was an impermissible viewpoint? No. I just arrived at my reasonable viewpoint. Yet that's what you did with us - every time I logged onto these boards and complained about this guy WE'RE ALL NOW COMPLAINING ABOUT INCLUDING YOU, you told me I couldn't have logically arrived at this position and thus I must refrain from espousing it. Only when YOU had decided we could all complain about Manning was it finally okay to do so.

The arrogance, man, even when you've been proven wrong. Undeserved arrogance. It's such a lousy way to go through life. What are you going to do with all your free time BTW?

Keep moving those goalposts. We’ve all agreed on that since day 1.
 
If after watching a coach perform at all aspects of his job for a time, Person A gives him 0% chance of succeeding, and Person B disagreed with that, so be it. It's just a difference of opinion. But you, Person B, couldn't let Person A have his opinion based on his own analysis of the evidence, and yes desperately and weirdly kept insisting that his determination was not correct. Like out of nowhere a bunch of us Person A's started getting shit on by you. It was, and continues to be, just bizarre.

When the Person A's prove to be right, that this lousy coach sure enough had 0% chance of being our long-term answer, but Person B still can't leave well enough alone, then it's time for Person B to do some self-examination.

You had more faith in Manning for a longer period than I did. Do you recall me telling you that this was an impermissible viewpoint? No. I just arrived at my reasonable viewpoint. Yet that's what you did with us - every time I logged onto these boards and complained about this guy WE'RE ALL NOW COMPLAINING ABOUT INCLUDING YOU, you told me I couldn't have logically arrived at this position and thus I must refrain from espousing it. Only when YOU had decided we could all complain about Manning was it finally okay to do so.

The arrogance, man, even when you've been proven wrong. Undeserved arrogance. It's such a lousy way to go through life. What are you going to do with all your free time BTW?

I also love that we are back to you letting a stranger on the internet tell you what to do.
 
I also love that we are back to you letting a stranger on the internet tell you what to do.

You didn’t like your first comeback so you went for a second.

Obviously I never did do what a stranger told me to do. What’s odd is that stranger thinking he can tell others what to do. You have... annoyed us. Profoundly. I think that’s the word for it. The Manning debacle is the massive pile of b.s. in the middle of Wake’s Forest, and you’ve been the fly buzzing around it incessantly. Hopefully in March both the b.s. and its primary espouser will be gone.

Every so often we have these remember-when threads where we recall posters from the past with delight or disdain. There’s one that’s been going on now. The next time we think of you will be one of those threads. For me it will be with delight. Ah, remember that poor soul! What a time. Hope he got the help he needed.
 
I just want people to make well-reasoned arguments in support of their position. And yeah, before John Collins left those who gave Manning a 20% chance of getting Wake back to Dino levels were more right than those that gave him a 0% chance, no matter how desperately (and weirdly) you want it to be otherwise.

Hmm. I would not think a 20% chance to get to Dino levels is worth retaining a coach.
 
RChill, where did you get your official percentages from?
 
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