Grobe or Clawson, who ya got?

SDeacz said:

Good, you've made that point, as have others. I don't disagree Grobe's last 2 years, and the year before the Music City Bowl year were awful years. I said I think he stayed loyal to avg to below avg assistants for too long. He didn't replace talented assistant coaches that left for other programs with talent. I'm sure he'd change that if he could. He's at fault for those 3 years, but when comparing an entire 13 year career, I'd still take those 10 other seasons and what he did for our school. Nobody wanted to play us and we were very close to playing in a lot of bowl games. Maybe swap a few Vandy games during their best years, @ Nebraska, @ stanford, Purdue, for a few Towson's and Delewares, and we are talking 6-7 bowl games for Grobe.

John Wolford was recruited by Grobe's staff. He's the best Wake QB, statistically speaking, we've ever had.

Duke Ejiofor, Wendall Dunn, Cam Serigne, Grant Dawson, marquel Lee, Ryan Janvion, Tyler Harris were all starters and impact players on Bowl winning teams, all Grobe Recruits. His later classes had way too many misses, but I disagree the cupboard was totally bare.

Click to expand...

His last five years have an under .380 winning percentage and had he stayed it would have been seven years under .350. Sorry, he many more bad years than good ones. Two of his three year peak were grossly underachieving seasons.

The losses back then were also brutal, as it felt like we pissed away so many potential victories. I don't think Clawson loses near that many close games, especially where we had leads/chances to win late.

2007 - Nebraska (17-20) - Hodges INT in the end zone, last second drive comes up short
2007 - @Virginia (16-17) - Offense goes into shell and Swank misses last second FG
2008 - Navy (17-24) - Skinner 4 INTs, and Lobo-fense manages 41 yards rushing
2008 - @Miami (10-16) Lobo-fense only allows Skinner to throw 8 passes in the rain with 52 rushes
2008 - @NCSU (17-21) Marshall Williams drops game winning TD
2008 - BC (21-24) Lobo-fense with 191 total yards, and D gives up game winning drive to backup QB in final 2 minutes
2009 - @BC (24-27 OT) Wake loses (fumbles?) in OT
2009 - @Navy (10-13) Gross rain game - Lobo-fense strikes again
2009 - Miami (27-28) Blew 27-14 lead in the 4th quarter, sparked by a fumbled punt return
2009 - @GT (27-30 OT) Up 17-10 at half, Nesbitt torches us in 2nd

The previous 2 staffs have to be seen in the light of facilities - recruiting.

It has been an evolution

Jim Caldwell — brought back a sense of toughness and importance to WF football. Laid the foundation under crummy conditions.

Jim Grobe — took the fundamentals laid down by Caldwell and built upon it through facility improvements and solidified the program. Set the table for a younger coach to come and take it the next step.

Dave Clawson - the complete package..has facilities to compete with anybody in the league. He believes he can win championships here. I am with him on that..

Seems like one of the biggest differences at the moment is we've seen the end of Grobe's tenure, but not of Clawson's. You either leave a hero, or stick around long enough to become a villain.

My vote is Clawson, but I totally respect SDeacz’s argument and the motivation behind it.

The fact is we’ve had three fine men as our last three head coaches; two of the three have demonstrated that you can truly succeed here and made me proud to say I am a Deacon, and the third went on to have success elsewhere and makes me proud to say he was a Deacon.

In Grobe's first 5 years, here's his ACC conference wins:

@ Duke 42-35
@ UVA 34-30
@ UNC 32-31
@ GA Tech 24-21
Duke 36-10
UNC 31-0
@ BC 32-28
#14 NC State 38-24
@ Duke 42-13
Clemson 45-17
BC 17-14
Duke 24-22
Clemson 31-27
NC State 27-19
@Duke 44-6

Here are Clawsons:
Virginia Tech 6-3
@ BC 3-0
@ Duke 24-14
Syracuse 28-9
Virginia 27-20
@BC 34-10
UL 42-32
Syracuse 64-43
#25 NC State 30-24
@ UL 56-35
@ #22 NC State 27-23
@ Duke 59-7

15-12. The next 3 years, Grobe had 2 winning records in the ACC and an ACC ship. It will be hard to win a ship in the same conference as Clemson. But I'd like to see a couple 5-3 or better conference records, and maybe a second place Atlantic finish to keep up with Grobe, to be fair, since Grobe didn't play in the conference with Clemson (Although he did with a constant top 10 Florida State his first 5 years.

Grobe's first 8 years were an unprecedented period of competitiveness, finally turned in to wins. We can all be sour about 4 of Grobe's last 5 years, sure. But discounting the job he did his first 8 years isn't fair. Clawson also has gotten blown out a lot more than Grobe did.

I'd like to see the next 8 years of Clawson before calling this. But Grobe played a much tougher OOC schedule, which lead to less bowl games, and won more ACC games thusfar in his career at wake.

The difference between a bowl game this year and not was winning an OT game @Tulane. The difference between a bowl game and not in 2002 was beating Purdue at Purdue. That Purdue team had 7 junior starters on their Defense who got drafted the next year.

In 2001, we go bowling if the same amount bowls that are available in 2018 were available then. (21 Non BCS bowls compared to 33)
In 2003, that same Purdue team, with that D now seniors kept us from bowling
In 2005, Losing to Jay Cutler's vandy team and @ Nebraska kept us out of a bowl. It would have been nice to play Rice and Tulane instead.

DeacDaddy said:

My vote is Clawson, but I totally respect SDeacz’s argument and the motivation behind it.

The fact is we’ve had three fine men as our last three head coaches; two of the three have demonstrated that you can truly succeed here and made me proud to say I am a Deacon, and the third went on to have success elsewhere and makes me proud to say he was a Deacon.

Click to expand...

Caldwell came to Wake from a position coach job. Big learning curve from being a guy on staff to being the man in charge. He laid a good foundation for Grobe.

Deacfreak07 said:

Did scheduling those OOC help us or hurt us under Grobe? We probably go to bowls in between Seattle and the OB with a softer schedule. IIRC, Grobe had some influence over that schedule.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that, especially 2001-05. OOC games are set well in advance.

Also, as stated above, there were less bowl games so we had to schedule tougher since 6 wins didn't automatically guarantee a bowl game. See 2001.

SDeacz said:

In Grobe's first 5 years, here's his ACC conference wins:

Click to expand...

A. Nobody's complaining about Grobe's first 5 years. The reason most people are picking Clawson is because of how Grobe ended his tenure here, not how he started it.

B. Grobe had quite a bit more talent to start with than Clawson did. Here's a link to the WF Football Season Wrap-Up for that year, which includes depth charts and key contributors.

Grobe's offensive starters were:

MacPherson
Tarence Williams/Staton
Ovie
John Stone
Jason Anderson
Ray Thomas
Tyson Clabo
Michael Collins (1st team All-ACC)
Vince Azzolina
Blake Henry
Mark Moroz

As key back-ups, we have Fabian Davis, Jax Landfried, Blake Lingruen, and Michael Moosbrugger. The majority of them were juniors and seniors. On defense, Grobe had:

Nate Bolling
Montique Sharpe
Calvin Pace
Kargbo
Kellen Brantley
Marquis Hopkins
Eric King
Quintin Williams
Caron Bracy
Marcus Magruder
Obi Chukwumah

By contrast, in Clawson's first season, we started:

Wolford
Dez Wortham
Matt James
EJ Scott
Cam Serigne
Will Smith
Antonio Ford
Cory Helms
Josh Harris
Dylan Intemann

Wendell Dunn
Tylor Harris
Josh Banks
Zach Allen
Brandon Chubb
Marquel Lee
Hunter Williams
Kevin Johnson
Anthony Wooding
Ryan Janvion
Bud Noel

There are some talented guys on defense, but I'm not sure a less-talented offense has taken the field for us in the last 20 years. The top two (by far) guys in that line-up were both freshmen. Orville Reynolds got 6 starts that year. Alique Terry 7. Jared Crump 8. Devin Pike 4. Grobe's first season was great, and he did a tremendous job of elevating the program right away. But there's no way he would have won 6 with our roster from Clawson's first year, just like there's no way Clawson would have won only 3 if he'd had Grobe's guys.

There was a ton of talent on the defense. But the offense was bare...

OldGoldBeard said:

A. Nobody's complaining about Grobe's first 5 years. The reason most people are picking Clawson is because of how Grobe ended his tenure here, not how he started it.

Click to expand...

I didn't say anyone is complaining about Grobe's first 5 years. I'm making a point that his first 8, he changed this program, into winning an ACC ship, and got to the point where fans were disappointed at an 8-5 finish and winning a bowl game. His bad 3 years at the end do not sum up his coaching career, and those last three years seem to be the determining factor when deciding whether he was a better coach or worse coach than Clawson. Sometimes you are just unlucky. Sometimes the stuff you've done to have great success doesn't work anymore. He didn't adapt. He didn't fire guys he was loyal to. He valued relationships over results. That let him down. He was fired. A coach who brought wake 5 of it's 10 bowl games in history and second ACC championship ever was fired for not making those changes, and it was probably the right move, especially considering Clawson's early success. I'm just not ready to say Clawson has done more for wake or is a better coach at this juncture, and it appears I have a minority opinion.

Grobe did have some talent when he came in. Caldwell went 2-9 with that same talent. Coaching has something to do with it, probably moreso than guys being 21 instead of 20 years old.

AS a side note, I love Jim Caldwell. He was fired, and when I've gotten to speak to him a few times, he's so appreciative of the opportunity wake gave him. I'm sure he learned a lot as a head coach here to kick off a great NFL career, being considered for the Packers HC now. He comes back to Winston often, plays in Golf tournaments and loves this city.

Grobe was/is one of the top 3 coaches in Wake history IMO. However, he failed to recruit and to make the needed staff adjustments after having received a contract extension involving the highest salary that WF ever paid. There is an ethical element in that. To me that was the most disappointing factor. Really hard working coaches lose; but losing due to a lack of sufficient effort is a difficult thing to accept.

Clawson's work ethic is perhaps what impresses me most.

mebanedeac said:

Grobe was/is one of the top 3 coaches in Wake history IMO. However, he failed to recruit and to make the needed staff adjustments after having received a contract extension involving the highest salary that WF ever paid. There is an ethical element in that. To me that was the most disappointing factor. Really hard working coaches lose; but losing due to a lack of sufficient effort is a difficult thing to accept.

Clawson's work ethic is perhaps what impresses me most.

Click to expand...

Well said. Grobe milked the university for all he was worth for the five years after extension. Very surprising anx disappointing behavior along with defending the 3 wakeyleak miscreants. His good boy image proved not to be so real.

Anyone have their records in close games? As I alluded to above, it just seemed like we lost so many games under Grobe that we should have won. Doesn’t seem the same with Clawson, although we’ve definitely had a higher percentage of blowouts.

mebanedeac said:

Grobe was/is one of the top 3 coaches in Wake history IMO. However, he failed to recruit and to make the needed staff adjustments after having received a contract extension involving the highest salary that WF ever paid. There is an ethical element in that. To me that was the most disappointing factor. Really hard working coaches lose; but losing due to a lack of sufficient effort is a difficult thing to accept.

Clawson's work ethic is perhaps what impresses me most.

Click to expand...

Besides losing games, and not making staff changes, I don't think you can speak to the man's work ethic.

WFU1977 said:

Well said. Grobe milked the university for all he was worth for the five years after extension. Very surprising anx disappointing behavior along with defending the 3 wakeyleak miscreants. His good boy image proved not to be so real.

Click to expand...

That's a bit of a stretch based on the comments he made immediately following the news breaking. It seemed more ignorant of the facts than defending his former coaches.

SDeacz said:

Besides losing games, and not making staff changes, I don't think you can speak to the man's work ethic.

Click to expand...

It was not the losing, it was the failure to recruit the talent necessary to win. The cupboard was almost bare when Clawson arrived. Recruiting maybe the most difficult aspect of the coaching job at WF.

Grobe made the same lame excuses about recruiting to Wake as all our other coaches have done while we watched Stanford, Northwestern, and Duke surge. Called the pool of possibilities a puddle. Clawson identified these so called liabilities as assets. Always highlights the kind of kids we have at Wake Forest. It's a strength. He markets Wake . Sells a set of facts. Points out what we have to offer, not what we wished we had. All our past football coaches had LOWF syndrome to some degree. Clawson talks the steps to championships. Clawson is just different than all the rest.

SDeacz said:

That's a bit of a stretch based on the comments he made immediately following the news breaking. It seemed more ignorant of the facts than defending his former coaches.

Click to expand...

I think it fits his tendency to give his guys the benefit of the doubt rather than seeking accountability. Loyal to a fault.