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Thread: Merry Christmas 2018

  1. #21
    I disagree with you
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGoldBeard View Post
    This itself is a common myth. Pick out a few alleged examples and I think you'll see the differences quite easily. Happy to discuss if there are any that stand out to you.

    I spoke to a lot of people about this topic a couple of years ago, and it seemed everyone's path was different. Personally speaking, physicalism/materialism is easy enough to believe in a vacuum, but collapses under the weight of providing a coherent worldview. Determinism and fatalism are difficult stumbling blocks for me to get over, but the real breakdown comes at subjective morality. I believe that the Holocaust was objectively evil. I believe that it would always be evil, regardless of how many cultures indulge in Holocausts, or how many people approve of them, or how they might be written into the social contract. I think that most people believe that as well.

    However, a physicalist cannot coherently hold that view. There is no good argument reconciling objective morality and physicalism, moral principles cannot be explained in terms of physics and chemistry, and moral truths are not objects with a physical existence. In the absence of a God or immaterial (yet existent) moral truths, things like genocide, slavery, and rape aren't actually evil, their morality is simply a matter of popular opinion. Again, I don't think many people think that way, but I think relatively few atheists/materialists/physicalists actually pursue their line of thinking to its logical conclusion and impact on their worldview.

    Once the door is opened for the existence of immaterial entities (i.e. once we think of the existence of God as being possible), I think the various arguments for God's existence--particularly the cosmological and teleological--become very persuasive. And once you accept the mere possibility of a divine explanation for the life, death, and post-death impact of Jesus Christ, the Christian explanation is by far the most likely.

    That's my $.02. Faith is a deeply personal thing, and different people view the same evidence in different ways.
    so if the only reason you're not murdering someone is because God says it's bad are you really adhering to an objective moral

  2. #22
    Twas Heraclitus who said that for God all things are good and right and just, but for man some things are good and others are not.
    Your in the field of time when your man, and one of the problems of life is to live in the realization of both terms. That good and evil are simply temporal apparitions is the essence of Eastern religion.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdinBama View Post
    Your in the field of time when your man, and one of the problems of life is to live in the realization of both terms. That good and evil are simply temporal apparitions is the essence of Eastern religion.
    Strong contender for most nonsensical post of the year. I have no idea what you're saying.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheCaptain View Post
    so if the only reason you're not murdering someone is because God says it's bad are you really adhering to an objective moral
    Or solely to achieve the fundamentally selfish promise of eternal life. Indiana Jones disabused me of this notion when I was a child.

  5. #25
    As usual, OGB posts a thoughtful and well-written thing. Reminds me of that NYT article that's been circulating.

    I just don't find any of these Christmas-time, reactionary apologetics convincing, and maybe for me it comes down to this conclusion:

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGoldBeard View Post
    And once you accept the mere possibility of a divine explanation for the life, death, and post-death impact of Jesus Christ, the Christian explanation is by far the most likely.
    Many of the smartest men of the last two millennia have dedicated their lives to thinking through these problems, so it shouldn't be surprising that there are well-reasoned justifications for the ambiguities and contradictions of the Christian worldview. Just seems to me that complicating and intellectualizing the notion of faith is a backwards and self-defeating endeavor. Anyways, haven't thought through this as carefully and thoroughly as any of y'all, so take these critiques with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGoldBeard View Post
    Faith is a deeply personal thing, and different people view the same evidence in different ways.
    This is well put. Think I'll stick with exegesis which at least acknowledges in its methods that much of biblical meaning is a matter of interpretation rather than truth.

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  7. #27
    Scott "Rufio" Feather
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    Spelling, grammar, and syntax.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConnorEl View Post
    Spelling, grammar, and syntax.

    Get to know them.
    If you drink, you pay a lot of syntax.

  9. #29
    Scott "Rufio" Feather
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    Lol

    Yep. Doing that now.

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdinBama View Post
    Your in the field of time when your man, and one of the problems of life is to live in the realization of both terms. That good and evil are simply temporal apparitions is the essence of Eastern religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by BirdinBama View Post
    "nonsensical" to you.
    Why don't you translate for me?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdinBama View Post
    Stories of virgin births, deaths and resurrections are found in almost every mythology in the world. What makes the one about Jesus so special, or worthy of more belief?
    This comment interests me. Could you give me examples of other religions/world views that you have seen where these elements are present? In my limited research, these characteristics seem to be somewhat unique to Christianity.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deacaholic View Post
    This comment interests me. Could you give me examples of other religions/world views that you have seen where these elements are present? In my limited research, these characteristics seem to be somewhat unique to Christianity.
    Seriously? They are all over Greek and Roman mythology for example. Iím not as familiar with Hindu sacred texts, but I would bet money theyíre in there.

  13. #33
    Scott "Rufio" Feather
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deacfreak07 View Post
    Seriously? They are all over Greek and Roman mythology for example. Iím not as familiar with Hindu sacred texts, but I would bet money theyíre in there.
    Egyptian too. Horus, Osirisís son, has a resurrection story. Scholars believe it is not connected to the Christian myth, but the question still remains, why do these stories pop up over and over.

  14. #34
    The Pumpfaker zqglass's Avatar
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    This thread makes me want to watch Religulous.
    beer and titties

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacaholic View Post
    This comment interests me. Could you give me examples of other religions/world views that you have seen where these elements are present? In my limited research, these characteristics seem to be somewhat unique to Christianity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacfreak07 View Post
    Seriously? They are all over Greek and Roman mythology for example. Iím not as familiar with Hindu sacred texts, but I would bet money theyíre in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
    Egyptian too. Horus, Osirisís son, has a resurrection story. Scholars believe it is not connected to the Christian myth, but the question still remains, why do these stories pop up over and over.
    These are true, but there are some distinctions when we unpack resurrection as an idea itself.

    Many (I would venture to say most, but can't substantiate that) resurrection stories of antiquity are cyclical - especially when describing a deity associated with either the sun (such as Ra or some Apollo myths) or fertility/agriculture (such as Dumazid in Mesopotamia) . Many others involve a death that is not analogous to the death because of the nature of deity in the belief system (i.e. not a true death).

    Osiris' resurrection (not Horus - the resurrection results in the birth of Horus) is fairly different as well, as Osiris is dismembered and his pieces are scattered across the earth. Isis joins the pieces (although not all) together, which makes Osiris both living and dead, and he becomes the ruler of the underworld.

    I think the specific death and resurrection of Jesus within history is fairly unique, especially when placed in its context of 1st century Judaism.

    The particularity of the resurrection of Jesus is that his death was a true death and the resurrection was a bodily resurrection within time. This countered many beliefs about resurrection of 1st century Judaism. There was a contested belief in resurrection (which was more developed/crystallized during the exile with more interaction with Babylonian/Persian influences). Resurrection was debated among different strains of thought at the time, but it was always understood that resurrection, if it did happen, would happen at the end of time. That Jesus would resurrect within time was outside the general thought of the time and revolutionary.

    An excellent look at the resurrection of Jesus and its context in the Ancient Near East and 1st century is NT Wright's "Resurrection and the Son of God." More of a scholarly look at the doctrine of resurrection (from a Christian perspective with an eye toward historical criticism) than an apologetic of "why the resurrection is plausible."

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamThunderbolt View Post
    These are true, but there are some distinctions when we unpack resurrection as an idea itself.

    Many (I would venture to say most, but can't substantiate that) resurrection stories of antiquity are cyclical - especially when describing a deity associated with either the sun (such as Ra or some Apollo myths) or fertility/agriculture (such as Dumazid in Mesopotamia) . Many others involve a death that is not analogous to the death because of the nature of deity in the belief system (i.e. not a true death).

    Osiris' resurrection (not Horus - the resurrection results in the birth of Horus) is fairly different as well, as Osiris is dismembered and his pieces are scattered across the earth. Isis joins the pieces (although not all) together, which makes Osiris both living and dead, and he becomes the ruler of the underworld.

    I think the specific death and resurrection of Jesus within history is fairly unique, especially when placed in its context of 1st century Judaism.

    The particularity of the resurrection of Jesus is that his death was a true death and the resurrection was a bodily resurrection within time. This countered many beliefs about resurrection of 1st century Judaism. There was a contested belief in resurrection (which was more developed/crystallized during the exile with more interaction with Babylonian/Persian influences). Resurrection was debated among different strains of thought at the time, but it was always understood that resurrection, if it did happen, would happen at the end of time. That Jesus would resurrect within time was outside the general thought of the time and revolutionary.

    An excellent look at the resurrection of Jesus and its context in the Ancient Near East and 1st century is NT Wright's "Resurrection and the Son of God." More of a scholarly look at the doctrine of resurrection (from a Christian perspective with an eye toward historical criticism) than an apologetic of "why the resurrection is plausible."
    Youíre still dealing with the problem of only analyzing all the myths within a Judeo-Christian concept of the afterlife. ďDeathĒ is a little more fluid in some other traditions we discussed. Ultimately, what is most radical about Christianity isnít itís resurrection or salvific narrative, itís the idea of the last being first. Itís the idea of the Divine being present in and with the vulnerable of the world. The concept of God as a human baby is way more radical than folks tend to focus on. The almighty God shit his pants and was wholly dependent on humans for years. Thatís about as humble as it gets. Fast forwarding 3 decades is a convenient way for powerful men throughout history to ignore that aspect of their faith.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacfreak07 View Post
    Youíre still dealing with the problem of only analyzing all the myths within a Judeo-Christian concept of the afterlife. ďDeathĒ is a little more fluid in some other traditions we discussed. Ultimately, what is most radical about Christianity isnít itís resurrection or salvific narrative, itís the idea of the last being first. Itís the idea of the Divine being present in and with the vulnerable of the world. The concept of God as a human baby is way more radical than folks tend to focus on. The almighty God shit his pants and was wholly dependent on humans for years. Thatís about as humble as it gets. Fast forwarding 3 decades is a convenient way for powerful men throughout history to ignore that aspect of their faith.
    Completely agree. Almost mentioned that a lot of the resurrection discussion gets murky because concepts of death/afterlife differ among different thought streams.

    And yes, the incarnation is every bit as radical as the resurrection - and more formative for my faith, honestly.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamThunderbolt View Post
    Completely agree. Almost mentioned that a lot of the resurrection discussion gets murky because concepts of death/afterlife differ among different thought streams.

    And yes, the incarnation is every bit as radical as the resurrection - and more formative for my faith, honestly.
    I think I have more of a heart for discipleship that starts at the beginning like yours. When you start at the end, it opens up the possibility for your faith to be more about proximity to power and what your ATM Jesus can do for you than what you can do for your neighbor.

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