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Thread: Police and Prison Abolition Thread

  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by BarcaDeac View Post
    you have to walk before you crawl. it's like MDMH suggesting McCaskill got destroyed by a MAGA candidate because a progressive didn't run for senate in MO. You have to erode away rather than just going all in.
    And I'm asking you how that has worked in the past?


  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheCaptain View Post
    "i don't like this and it needs to be fixed!"

    "ok, you might be right. what did you have in mind?"

    "it's not incumbent on me to offer an alternative"

    how life gets done !
    You are smarter than this, hopefully.

  3. #223
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    Also, since the definition of a ďviolentĒ crime has come up, SCOTUS just had a decision broadening the definition to a degree that should shock all of you

    Eh, that seems about right. The last two examples are violence. Mild for sure, but violent nonetheless.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    So my Mississippi penal colony means the abolishment of all prisons but you wonít move there, seems telling.
    I don't know what your point is or who you are talking to. Seems telling.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    Iím not sure that comparing slaves to violent murderers and rapists is the look you want, but you do you.
    I'm not, but you know that. You see that chart above? Is the expansion of our PIC driven by a uniqueness of America to create more violent murderers and rapists than the rest of the world?

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    Bro, I donít think anyone on this thread is arguing we need to keep incarcerating drug offenders. This type of post isnít advancing your ball.
    Bro, the expansion of the PIC is not entirely driven by drug offenders.

  7. #227
    I disagree with you
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    You are smarter than this, hopefully.
    i dunno, people come to me every day and whine about x, y, or z and i tell them to come back with a solution and that seems to produce results more quickly and satisfactorily.

  8. #228
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    Youíre not this dumb.
    Yeah I guess I shouldnít assume governments will do something with the abandoned prisons.

    There are obviously things I would like to see in place to make the transition to a prison free society smoother for all involved, but the priority for me is closing prisons and Iím comfortable doing that even if those things are not perfectly in place.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by RChildress107 View Post
    Eh, that seems about right. The last two examples are violence. Mild for sure, but violent nonetheless.
    This baffles me.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    I don't know what your point is or who you are talking to. Seems telling.
    You want to abolish prisons, you have no ideas except prisons bad must be abolished. Your plan then means all prisoners are no longer in prison so they are in society. Yet if this no longer prison means they are only in society with you it seems you are apprehensive.

  11. #231
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarcaDeac View Post
    you have to walk before you crawl. it's like MDMH suggesting McCaskill got destroyed by a MAGA candidate because a progressive didn't run for senate in MO. You have to erode away rather than just going all in.
    Iíll go on record and say I would absolutely vote for and applaud half measures in this area. But Iím not going to stop calling for total abolition because of them. Immediately releasing all non-violent drug offenders is basically the Claire McCaskill of prison reform. It doesnít address the worst aspects or root causes of our prison system and mainly just serves as cover for moneyed interests to preserve the status quo, but Iím still voting for her over the alternative.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    Also, since the definition of a ďviolentĒ crime has come up, SCOTUS just had a decision broadening the definition to a degree that should shock all of you

    I would challenge you to think about this in the context of how reform is nearly impossible. This is a microcosm of the entire history of reform. A believe in the ability to create colorblind policies in an incredibly racist institution. Any reform is can be undone or reconstituted by the legal system under the false idea that we can create colorblind laws and a system to apply them fairly.

  13. #233
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    This baffles me.
    Taking money from someoneís hand or a purse from their shoulder against their will is violent. Pickpocketing is as well.

  14. #234
    It seems to me most everyone is open to finding alternatives for non-violent criminals or violent criminals who pose no further physical risk to society (I think most would agree a crime like pick-pocketing doesn't necessarily need imprisonment). The sticking point are those criminals who are violent and do pose an immediate threat, the ones you yourself have said you're ok with involuntarily confining.

    So you abolish prisons, what do you do with those criminals you're ok with involuntarily confining? If you want the same people who are currently in charge of the PIC to come up with the solution, you're probably going to be disappointed. I read a few abolition pieces last night and they ranged from being open to prison reform to more or less anarchy, so it appears there's no consensus in the movement. What do you favor? What is this involuntary confinement that you're ok with?

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    You want to abolish prisons, you have no ideas except prisons bad must be abolished. Your plan then means all prisoners are no longer in prison so they are in society. Yet if this no longer prison means they are only in society with you it seems you are apprehensive.
    I don't understand which interaction prompted this discussion. What am I apprehensive about?

  16. #236
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    You want to abolish prisons, you have no ideas except prisons bad must be abolished. Your plan then means all prisoners are no longer in prison so they are in society. Yet if this no longer prison means they are only in society with you it seems you are apprehensive.
    This would be wayyyy down on the list of things that make me apprehensive.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    Does the chart you posted include drug offenders?
    Why wouldn't it?

  18. #238
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyDeac View Post
    It seems to me most everyone is open to finding alternatives for non-violent criminals or violent criminals who pose no further physical risk to society (I think most would agree a crime like pick-pocketing doesn't necessarily need imprisonment). The sticking point are those criminals who are violent and do pose an immediate threat, the ones you yourself have said you're ok with involuntarily confining.

    So you abolish prisons, what do you do with those criminals you're ok with involuntarily confining? If you want the same people who are currently in charge of the PIC to come up with the solution, you're probably going to be disappointed. I read a few abolition pieces last night and they ranged from being open to prison reform to more or less anarchy, so it appears there's no consensus in the movement. What do you favor? What is this involuntary confinement that you're ok with?
    Thatís not quite what I said. Criminality has nothing to do with it.

    My priority is getting everyone currently held in prison out of prison. If you think some of those people need to be involuntarily confined in some way then I would support a system that:

    1. Only places people in involuntary confinement that meet the standard I mentioned earlier (serious, imminent threat to society; no less restrictive alternative to mitigate that threat, risk to society is > violence we are inflicting on that individual).

    2. Only lasts for as long as the individual meets that standard.

    3. Actively works to remove people from involuntary confinement as quickly as possible.

    4. Makes the confinement only as restrictive as necessary (thinking mostly of visitors, internet and phone access, etc.).

    5. Provides for humane living conditions (spartan but still humane).

    But Iím fine releasing people before that system is in place, tbh.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by RChildress107 View Post
    What comes next is the prisoners all go free, governments tear down or repurpose the prisons, and no one else is ever sentenced to prison when convicted of a crime.
    Ok. Well if that's what you have in mind 1) I'm personally offboard with that...I now more fully understand your position but simply don't agree (which is fine...it just is what it is), and 2) there's a lot of of incremental change that will have to happen before that's even on the radar, if ever. That's many years away, and in my mind, not worth focusing on when the incremental change, at least to me, clearly has to come first.

  20. #240
    Rusty Larue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison2Carter View Post
    Ok. Well if that's what you have in mind 1) I'm personally offboard with that...I now more fully understand your position but simply don't agree (which is fine...it just is what it is), and 2) there's a lot of of incremental change that will have to happen before that's even on the radar, if ever. That's many years away, and in my mind, not worth focusing on when the incremental change, at least to me, clearly has to come first.
    What do you mean by this? From an implementation standpoint thereís no reason the change has to be incremental.

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