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Police and Prison Abolition Thread

ConnorEl said:
It's fair to wonder what would be the results if the question were rather: "Do you favor defunding the police?".


It's not surprising most folks answered the actual question affirmatively. That's the point...people generally favor enhanced public services to deal with mental health and other crises instead of having the police deal with nearly every perceived emergency. So yeah, I'd hope politicians and leaders of good will and skill could leverage this into positive change.
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This is essentially what the practice and goal of abolition is. What are all the social problems that police and prisons fail to solve...sex work, drug addiction, domestic abuse, homelessness, etc., and what are ways that we can address those social issues without the carceral state. It’s much cheaper to house people than it is to sweep them out of homeless camps and cycle them through jails and ERs. Police fail at solving gang violence. What are the social conditions that lead kids to that life and cycle of violence? How do we disrupt that? Education, job guarantees, decriminalization of drugs, etc.

How much do drug rehab programs cost? If you don’t have stable housing, is it realistic for someone to treat their addiction? And on and on...
 
srs q: Why would y'all even engage a landlord on this issue? A strong and dependable police force are good business for him. He pays taxes, they protect his property and evict tenants per the letter of the lease - no further questions past that as far as I can tell.

What alternative is he reasonably going to be even remotely interested in? Seems like there's no imaginative outcomes from talking with landlords about police reform/abolishment.
 
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I see we are back to the "anybody who owns rental properties is a fascist" take.

I have yet to had to evict or sue anybody since I started handling these properties for my parents 8 years ago or so.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
ChrisL: “Defund the police” is a bad slogan because Republicans can easily mischaracterize it.

*Poll accurately describes Defund the Police*

ChrisL: The poll is misleading because it didn’t mischaracterize Defund The Police
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When I type defund into guogle, this is the definition that pops up.

VERB
US



  • prevent from continuing to receive funds.




Most people would equate that with eliminate or abolish.

Most people would also equate that definition more towards police reform. How we deal with alot of these issues needs to change. If we do it as part of the police department or have a separate ecilop department that has to coordinate with the police department is just semantics. Reform.
 
I don’t think it’s fair to personally attack ChrisL for owning rental property, and I don’t think being a landlord invalidates his viewpoint on policing. Now the tunnels resident corporate lawyer that defends companies from sexual harassment claims, fuck that guy.
 
MHBDemon said:
This is essentially what the practice and goal of abolition is. What are all the social problems that police and prisons fail to solve...sex work, drug addiction, domestic abuse, homelessness, etc., and what are ways that we can address those social issues without the carceral state. It’s much cheaper to house people than it is to sweep them out of homeless camps and cycle them through jails and ERs. Police fail at solving gang violence. What are the social conditions that lead kids to that life and cycle of violence? How do we disrupt that? Education, job guarantees, decriminalization of drugs, etc.

How much do drug rehab programs cost? If you don’t have stable housing, is it realistic for someone to treat their addiction? And on and on...
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When framed that way, I think most people would agree with you. Why not use that framing instead of abolition? I recognize that you see those things as congruent, but they aren't perceived that way.

Fight to create a 911 alternative that the proper professionals instead of cops for mental health crises, fight to create new systems for traffic enforcement (like Berkley did), fight for resources for addicts and the homeless, etc etc. All of these issues can be addressed directly, and none *require* police abolition to be done successfully.
 
ChrisL68 said:
I see we are back to the "anybody who owns rental properties is a fascist" take.

I have yet to had to evict or sue anybody since I started handling these properties for my parents 8 years ago or so.
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That's not what I said. I just think it might explain why you're so reluctant to even begin a discussion about it.
 
TenaciousKory said:
That's not what I said. I just think it might explain why you're so reluctant to even begin a discussion about it.
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Why would that be? Do you think that a citizen should never have a legal avenue to enforce his/her property rights? What is somebody broke into your living space, changed the locks, and started squatting? How about I just borrow your car for a year or so?

If there is no recourse, then you are really at the point of anarchy. Good luck with those "reforms".
 
tiltdeac said:
Fight to create a 911 alternative that the proper professionals instead of cops for mental health crises, fight to create new systems for traffic enforcement (like Berkley did), fight for resources for addicts and the homeless, etc etc. All of these issues can be addressed directly, and none *require* police abolition to be done successfully.
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These are all things abolitionists are doing.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Why would that be? Do you think that a citizen should never have a legal avenue to enforce his/her property rights? What is somebody broke into your living space, changed the locks, and started squatting? How about I just borrow your car for a year or so?

If there is no recourse, then you are really at the point of anarchy. Good luck with those "reforms".
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What if someone broke into your living space and killed you while you were sleeping?
 
I think pivoting from “Defund”, to a vague and utopian call for total police abolishment, undermines the very necessary and urgent demand for defunding and depowering the police today. If liberals truly and sincerely want to support a new grand society, the Green New Deal has already been proposed. Perhaps today we can just use part of the police budget to hire social workers and mental health staff?? You know, stop trying to handle every crisis with a fucking gun.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Why would that be? Do you think that a citizen should never have a legal avenue to enforce his/her property rights? What is somebody broke into your living space, changed the locks, and started squatting? How about I just borrow your car for a year or so?

If there is no recourse, then you are really at the point of anarchy. Good luck with those "reforms".
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This is an incredibly hyperbolic response and I'm not sure how you're divining that from what I've written so far. All more evidence in support of my question to those who have been responding to you, to be honest.

I would prefer an alternative to the current practice of using police to defend property rights at this time, yes. I don't think it has to be "anarchy" though.
 
I wish that people weren't so quick to equate personhood with property rights, but that's a different (extended historical) argument I think. And one that probably isn't going to go over well in a message board with these demographics.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
I think pivoting from “Defund”, to a vague and utopian call for total police abolishment, undermines the very necessary and urgent demand for defunding and depowering the police today. If liberals truly and sincerely want to support a new grand society, the Green New Deal has already been proposed. Perhaps today we can just use part of the police budget to hire social workers and mental health staff?? You know, stop trying to handle every crisis with a fucking gun.
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If you don't support the total abolishment of police, then you are basically a landlord, you fucking centrist dishrag.
 
TenaciousKory said:
This is an incredibly hyperbolic response and I'm not sure how you're divining that from what I've written so far. All more evidence in support of my question to those who have been responding to you, to be honest.

I would prefer an alternative to the current practice of using police to defend property rights at this time, yes. I don't think it has to be "anarchy" though.
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You started this with a actually hyperbolic suggestion that as a landlord I couldn't have any opinion on reform in this regard. I have noticed that you are very good at doing that and then gaslighting that the other person is being unreasonable.

I am all open to her your suggestions about how your property rights could be defended if somebody absolutely refuses to leave your property other than removing them and their possessions after any other alternatives have failed.
 
TenaciousKory said:
I wish that people weren't so quick to equate personhood with property rights, but that's a different (extended historical) argument I think. And one that probably isn't going to go over well in a message board with these demographics.
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of course nobody is doing that. I have the right to defend my personhood with deadly force if necessary. I have a right to defend my property rights by calling the police and/or starting eviction proceedings in a court of law.
 
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