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Police and Prison Abolition Thread

Have we tried the other extreme? No police needed but ChrisL is free to murder squatters? Nobody will be staying for free with those consequences!
 
I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. I asked why MDMH and MHB would want to engage with your opinion. It's two different registers - the applied and the theoretical - speaking past each other. You're subject to the situation you entered when you took over the property and far more interested in protecting your investment/claim. They're not landlords - perhaps tenants - who are concerned with improving the working/living conditions of those frequently subject to police violence, and they frequently operate at a theoretical register because that's literally what is required to improve/change structures of governance/law/politics.

I don't know what gaslighting you're noticing in my words but you may want to slow down when you read because this is the second time you've misread the same post. And I remain confused as to why you're operating in such a defensive posture toward me with your responses.
 
MHBDemon said:
These are all things abolitionists are doing.
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And that's great! I guess I just feel like doing it under the abolitionist banner makes those efforts much more likely to be dismissed. Hope I'm wrong.
 
DeaconSig said:
If you don't support the total abolishment of police, then you are basically a landlord, you fucking centrist dishrag.
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lol, oh I definitely support utopia as well, I just don’t trust Democrats to pivot from “Defund The Police Today!” to “Maybe, if it’s ok with you, someday we won’t need the police??” That’s what this “reform” bullshit is. It’s a buzzword that Democrats water down into nothing. I don’t know how in the fuck posters like ChrisL can seriously suggest that police reform and defund are the same, when all of ChrisLs pragmatic faves want to INCREASE POLICE FUNDING? How can you seriously suggest such a meaningless term that it can both mean defunding the police and increasing police funding?
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
I don’t think it’s fair to personally attack ChrisL for owning rental property, and I don’t think being a landlord invalidates his viewpoint on policing. Now the tunnels resident corporate lawyer that defends companies from sexual harassment claims, fuck that guy.
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Please try to stay on topic. I've also defended police departments accused of using excessive force.
 
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myDeaconmyhand said:
lol, oh I definitely support utopia as well, I just don’t trust Democrats to pivot from “Defund The Police Today!” to “Maybe, if it’s ok with you, someday we won’t need the police??” That’s what this “reform” bullshit is. It’s a buzzword that Democrats water down into nothing. I don’t know how in the fuck posters like ChrisL can seriously suggest that police reform and defund are the same, when all of ChrisLs pragmatic faves want to INCREASE POLICE FUNDING? How can you seriously suggest such a meaningless term that it can both mean defunding the police and increasing police funding?
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The word police is a label. If our police had a trained mental health response unit that responded to appropriate situations of distress, then I would be fine with that being a part of police funding. Or you can call it ecilop funding if it makes you feel better. I think the funding should be removed from the militarization of police and this is consistent with my "pragmatic favs".
 
 
the lack of good faith discussion on this thread sucks because this is an area where I hold a ton of conflicting thoughts and feelings and would appreciate folks articulating their vision for public safety
 
“Militarization” - another buzzword. It’s like debating a DC consulting firm. The military protocol for discharging a weapon is much stricter than law enforcement. When does “militarization” ever come into the conversation beyond riot control and podunk small town parades when Deputy Dipshit gets to drive a tank down Main Street?
 
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There’s a pretty important distinction between social workers and mental health professionals and those same jobs as employees of a police department.
 
MHBDemon said:
There’s a pretty important distinction between social workers and mental health professionals and those same jobs as employees of a police department.
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Agreed, but there is also a difference between dealing with somebody with mental issues in a calm controlled environment and a chaotic environment with the potential exists for them to hurt other people.

Even if you handle it as a mental health issue, there has to be some contingency alternative if things deteriorate. That would either need to be handled as the police or in coordination with the police.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Agreed, but there is also a difference between dealing with somebody with mental issues in a calm controlled environment and a chaotic environment with the potential exists for them to hurt other people.

Even if you handle it as a mental health issue, there has to be some contingency alternative if things deteriorate. That would either need to be handled as the police or in coordination with the police.
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Many times the presence of armed officers and the threat of violence IS the reason for escalation.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Agreed, but there is also a difference between dealing with somebody with mental issues in a calm controlled environment and a chaotic environment with the potential exists for them to hurt other people.

Even if you handle it as a mental health issue, there has to be some contingency alternative if things deteriorate. That would either need to be handled as the police or in coordination with the police.
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Things deteriorate because of the police presence. Our concept of law enforcement doesn’t fit in a scenario where the law officer can’t command control at the threat of violence. We don’t need guns or chokeholds anywhere near 99.9% of mental health crisis.
 
MHBDemon said:
Many times the presence of armed officers and the threat of violence IS the reason for escalation.
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Sure. But not always. And the gap between the two is the issue. We need to drastically change how officers interact with the public. But we also have to be able to deal with the fact that, as a nation with more guns than people, sometimes a person who is unable to recognize right from wrong is going to have a firearm and try to use it.
 
MHBDemon said:
Many times the presence of armed officers and the threat of violence IS the reason for escalation.
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myDeaconmyhand said:
Things deteriorate because of the police presence. Our concept of law enforcement doesn’t fit in a scenario where the law officer can’t command control at the threat of violence. We don’t need guns or chokeholds anywhere near 99.9% of mental health crisis.
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Police need to deescalate and back off. I think that can be achieved while dealing with these situations as a mental health situation while still having the proper resources available if it quickly escalates to a public safety issue.
 
DeaconSig said:
Sure. But not always. And the gap between the two is the issue. We need to drastically change how officers interact with the public. But we also have to be able to deal with the fact that, as a nation with more guns than people, sometimes a person who is unable to recognize right from wrong is going to have a firearm and try to use it.
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That’s not an unreasonable opinion, but where is the data showing that law enforcement firearms prevent criminal gun violence? The almost entire purpose of an officers firearm is for them to protect themselves. That’s a legitimate purpose, but it’s not crime or violence prevention.
 
TenaciousKory said:
I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. I asked why MDMH and MHB would want to engage with your opinion. It's two different registers - the applied and the theoretical - speaking past each other. You're subject to the situation you entered when you took over the property and far more interested in protecting your investment/claim. They're not landlords - perhaps tenants - who are concerned with improving the working/living conditions of those frequently subject to police violence, and they frequently operate at a theoretical register because that's literally what is required to improve/change structures of governance/law/politics.

I don't know what gaslighting you're noticing in my words but you may want to slow down when you read because this is the second time you've misread the same post. And I remain confused as to why you're operating in such a defensive posture toward me with your responses.
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Isn't this board so that people of different perspectives can discuss issues with each other. You don't see how your assertion could be taken as a divisive dismissal?
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
the lack of good faith discussion on this thread sucks because this is an area where I hold a ton of conflicting thoughts and feelings and would appreciate folks articulating their vision for public safety
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I agree with this. One side won't acknowledge that we need a complete reimagining of public safety. The other side won't acknowledge that any reimagining of public safety is well outside of people's comfort zones. So we just get a bunch of hyperbole in repetitive discussions.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Isn't this board so that people of different perspectives can discuss issues with each other. You don't see how your assertion could be taken as a divisive dismissal?
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If discussing issues between people of different perspectives was a necessary function of this board, I don't think the Tunnels would exist. At least 85% of the posts seemingly don't serve that purpose and I don't understand what it has to do with you misreading my post and accusing me of repeatedly "gaslighting" other posters and arguing on behalf of "anarchy." Like ... what?

This is a space for bickering, not discussion and I'm reminded of that every time I come here to post about a topic I'm passionate about.
 
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