Page 4 of 31 FirstFirst 12345678914 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 615

Thread: Police and Prison Abolition Thread

  1. #61
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison2Carter View Post
    What evidence is there that letting violent criminals into society without incarceration would be better than the system we have now?
    I donít have numbers but Iím quite confident that the amount of violence the prison system inflicts on human beings each year far outstrips the increase in violent crime (if any) weíd expect to see if prisons didnít exist. The amount of violent crime qualitatively worse than imprisoning someone is pretty low.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheCaptain View Post
    it might work in a world of little to zero scarcity.

    crimes of passion are another matter
    also, a good point. narrowing the wealth gap and mitigating social inequality is effective criminal justice reform
    We're going to be good again.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by tiltdeac View Post
    I could see an argument that says something something along the lines of "the criminal justice system as a whole does more harm than the violent criminals would should they never be incarcerated." I don't know that it's true, but I don't think it's wildly implausible.
    99 defendants locked up for selling cocaine and 1 defendant locked up for murder. You don't have to let the murderer out of jail to address inequities/injustice in the way the drug defendants are treated. It doesn't have to be an all or none proposition. I can't tell if anybody is saying that it should be.....seems like some people here are saying that....maybe I'm misunderstanding. But anybody that says so, in my view, isn't to be taken seriously.

  4. #64
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    It's very concrete to think that having no punishment for violent crimes will be deleterious to public safety. It's not at all like the legalization of marijuana. There is massive evidence in the US and around the world that making pot legal or quasi-legal doesn't create more crime. I defy you to show me where allowing violent criminals to not be punished has done the same.

    By the way, please stop posting things I NEVER said because it fits your desires. In no way, shape or form did I ever say, " for a crime does not mean all of a sudden everyone will start doing it."

    It would be nice, if for once, you'd admit you made this up and were wrong for doing it. I'm not holding my breath.

    P.S. Don't say I said, "Sounds like you want The Purge to be a documentary" as your excuse. Clearly, that's sarcasm.
    Where did I say no punishment?

  5. #65
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    Quote Originally Posted by Strickland33 View Post
    I can't remember where I read it, but mass incarceration - or the aggressive policing that followed the initiation of the War on Drugs - is almost completely responsible for the gang epidemics in the United States in the 80s-90s and in Central American countries in 00s-present.
    The War on Drugs is a failure. We should move towards the Portugal model. However, not having prisons for killers, rapists, child molestors, bank robbers and other violent criminals is dangerous to society and totally misguided.

    I'm not saying we should have the same type of prisons as we do or put check kiters in them, but there needs to be punishment for those who harm others.

  6. #66
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by WFcatamount22 View Post
    I think it is a fair assumption to make that if theft was no longer huge retributive punishment toward robbery and armed robbery that the rates would go up dramatically. Same with rape and to a lesser degree murder, especially in MHB's ideal state of no police force.

    In this model why wouldn't people just go out and take what they wanted as theirs?
    Who is suggesting this model?

  7. #67
    I disagree with you
    ImTheCaptain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    45,891
    well, without much explanation last night MHBD did say he thought that police as a function should not exist

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by RChildress107 View Post
    I donít have numbers but Iím quite confident that the amount of violence the prison system inflicts on human beings each year far outstrips the increase in violent crime (if any) weíd expect to see if prisons didnít exist. The amount of violent crime qualitatively worse than imprisoning someone is pretty low.
    Does this mean that the numbers exists but you just don't have them off the top of your head, or you just feel this way about the subject but to your knowledge there's no concrete evidence to support this view? Entirely setting aside that your claim of harm 1) addresses proposed harm to two separate populations - convicted criminals vs. law abiding public; and 2) you don't have to do away with prisons to acknowledge and attempt to fix problem with the way prisoners are treated.

  9. #69
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison2Carter View Post
    99 defendants locked up for selling cocaine and 1 defendant locked up for murder. You don't have to let the murderer out of jail to address inequities/injustice in the way the drug defendants are treated. It doesn't have to be an all or none proposition. I can't tell if anybody is saying that it should be.....seems like some people here are saying that....maybe I'm misunderstanding. But anybody that says so, in my view, isn't to be taken seriously.
    Iím mainly just saying letís let the 99 people out of prison before fighting over how we should handle the 1.

    And whether to let the 1 out of confinement (or whether to confine the 1 in the first place) shouldnít be a retributive conversation IMO.

  10. #70
    Scooter Banks

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Right here
    Posts
    8,938
    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    So it seems like ADT, Shoo disagree with my anti-cop take, so let's talk about it?

    Here is the American Public Health Association:



    I think 1, 3, and 4, especially are abolitionist demands.

    More:



    Y'all can tell me all day how I live in a "fantasy world." And maybe there is something to that. I live in a world, where twice in recent history, police officers have given baseball cards to my kids. The first time, my spouse was pulled over for speeding, and the cop gave my kids Royals cards. Then this year at school, there were officers giving out baseball cards in front of the elementary school. And it's not fucking lost on me that a couple zip codes over, kids no different than mine are criminalized when they show up to school for the same behavior my kids will engage in. That over in KCK, the current police chief was literal partners with this shitbag, who worked on the force for 35 years and got up to captain:



    So no one in the KCK police department knew about this guy for 35 years? And you want to tell me police provide a "legitimate" public service?

    All those St. Louis cops are just totally oblivious to all the racism in their department?

    So I'll ask, what fantasy world do y'all live in?
    There's a lot here, and I think you think you are making some grand point, but the basic premise falls flat. No one (at least no one currently arguing with you) is arguing that some form of the remedial measures you cite above are not necessary. Let's look at them:

    "1) eliminate policies and practices that facilitate disproportionate violence against specific populations (including laws criminalizing these populations); (2) institute robust law enforcement accountability measures; (3) increase investment in promoting racial and economic equity to address social determinants of health; (4) implement community-based alternatives to addressing harms and preventing trauma; and (5) work with public health officials to comprehensively document law enforcement contact, violence, and injuries."

    I don't even know what "eliminating laws criminalizing these populations" means (and if it means getting rid of laws, I am not with you), but any policies and practices that result in disproportionate violence against specific populations should be examined and revised or eliminated. Otherwise, I agree with all of them.

    This does not mean that all cops (or most) are bad or perform no public service. You think investigating crimes, finding kidnapped children, responding to emergencies, are not public services (or not necessary public services)? Do you think police pulling over your speeding wife or someone going 120 miles per hour is not a public service? What about pulling over a drunk driver before he kills himself or someone else? Not a public service?

    Of course that are bad cops, and bad policies, and those bad cops and bad policies should be held accountable or removed. But you are going to be very disappointed if you think you are getting anywhere with your abolitionist message or the idea that the institution of policing as a public service should not exist. It's all or nothing with you constantly, and you're going to have to be live with nothing (or, worse yet, the opposite of what you claim to want).
    Last edited by Shooshmoo; 01-15-2019 at 05:25 PM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    The War on Drugs is a failure. We should move towards the Portugal model. However, not having prisons for killers, rapists, child molestors, bank robbers and other violent criminals is dangerous to society and totally misguided.

    I'm not saying we should have the same type of prisons as we do or put check kiters in them, but there needs to be punishment for those who harm others.
    Nobody is saying this, RJ. Not having prisons =/= criminals in society. Again, I don't have a particularly creative policy imagination so I don't know what that replacement institution looks like, but plenty of abolitionist types have written on this topic.
    We're going to be good again.

  12. #72
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison2Carter View Post
    Does this mean that the numbers exists but you just don't have them off the top of your head, or you just feel this way about the subject but to your knowledge there's no concrete evidence to support this view? Entirely setting aside that your claim of harm 1) addresses proposed harm to two separate populations - convicted criminals vs. law abiding public; and 2) you don't have to do away with prisons to acknowledge and attempt to fix problem with the way prisoners are treated.
    I suspect numbers exist. Look up the numbers for crimes you (or our criminal justice system) considers worse than imprisonment and forced labor. I suspect it doesnít top 10% of the US prison population. Thatís obviously a very simplistic way to look at it, but thatís fine when we are talking about two things orders of magnitudes apart. That doesnít even address the violent criminals our prison system creates or other violent acts committed on prisoners other than imprisonment.

  13. #73
    Seems like abolitionists are trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, as a matter of policy, when a lot of people seem to agree we need to draw a new bath.

  14. #74
    Primary OGB Benefactor
    BiffTannen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Hill Valley
    Posts
    39,950
    What if The Purge was a musical ?

  15. #75
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison2Carter View Post
    Seems like abolitionists are trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, as a matter of policy, when a lot of people seem to agree we need to draw a new bath.
    If the baby is imprisoning another human being regardless of whether they pose a serious imminent threat to society then yes, Iím for throwing out the baby.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    It's very concrete to think that having no punishment for violent crimes will be deleterious to public safety. It's not at all like the legalization of marijuana. There is massive evidence in the US and around the world that making pot legal or quasi-legal doesn't create more crime. I defy you to show me where allowing violent criminals to not be punished has done the same.

    By the way, please stop posting things I NEVER said because it fits your desires. In no way, shape or form did I ever say, " for a crime does not mean all of a sudden everyone will start doing it."

    It would be nice, if for once, you'd admit you made this up and were wrong for doing it. I'm not holding my breath.

    P.S. Don't say I said, "Sounds like you want The Purge to be a documentary" as your excuse. Clearly, that's sarcasm.
    Well I am struggling to figure out how "letting people go who commit violent crimes will entice them into creating more" doesn't mean that more people will do violent crimes if you don't have punishment for it. I didn't make shit up, if you didn't mean what you wrote, write it better.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by WFcatamount22 View Post
    I think it is a fair assumption to make that if theft was no longer huge retributive punishment toward robbery and armed robbery that the rates would go up dramatically. Same with rape and to a lesser degree murder, especially in MHB's ideal state of no police force.

    In this model why wouldn't people just go out and take what they wanted as theirs?
    I don't really want to defend the model because I don't think it's good policy and I don't think MHB and Co. actually mean that violent criminals just get to walk free despite everyone wanting that to be their position because it's easy to scoff at and take down.

  18. #78
    RJ, I figured out the problem. When you said, "creating more," you actually meant that violent criminals will just do more violent crimes. I thought you were saying that letting violent criminals go would create more violent criminals (because that's what the word create means).

    Carry on.

  19. #79
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    Well I am struggling to figure out how "letting people go who commit violent crimes will entice them into creating more" doesn't mean that more people will do violent crimes if you don't have punishment for it. I didn't make shit up, if you didn't mean what you wrote, write it better.
    No, you just can't decide what a simple statement said. I didn't say all people. I SPECIFICALLY said, "letting people go who commit violent crimes".

    That's not "more people". It's a specific group who have ALREADY committed crimes. It says nothing like you allege.

    Reading Is Fundamental.

    Why can't you admit you are wrong and creating things I never said?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    The War on Drugs is a failure. We should move towards the Portugal model. However, not having prisons for killers, rapists, child molestors, bank robbers and other violent criminals is dangerous to society and totally misguided.

    I'm not saying we should have the same type of prisons as we do or put check kiters in them, but there needs to be punishment for those who harm others.
    It's almost as if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    If you don't agree with me, its not because of my use of the word. Its because you disagree with what I stand for. .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •