Page 6 of 31 FirstFirst 123456789101116 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 615

Thread: Police and Prison Abolition Thread

  1. #101
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    Quote Originally Posted by RChildress107 View Post
    What are the rational reasons for imprisoning offenders? And which offenders do those reasons universally apply to?
    I agree with ADT in that there is no place for a privately owned prisons for any reason whatsoever.

    If people commit violent crimes, they need to be in prison. If people rob banks (even with a note and a finger), they need to be in jail. Pedophiles, kidnappers, rapists need to be in prison.

  2. #102
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    Separation from society. There are some crimes that necessitate removing the offender from normal societal life, and in American history even the earliest colonies such as Massachusetts Bay had primitive jail cells for moderate crimes and even exile for the most severe crimes (and what is exile if not the greatest of separations from society). There are a multitude of reasons why prisons are necessary for a stable society, but the biggest issue is how those prisons are funded and what motivations those in power have for populating those prisons.

    I am of the opinion that there should be no private prisons whatsoever. All aspects of the criminal justice system should use public funds. To do this, funding would need to increase greatly and there would need to be aggressive endeavors towards reducing the amount of crimes that require jail time (not to mention reducing the number of crimes, period). But there still needs to be some mechanism of holding a select group of citizens separate from society at large due to inherent risks in crimes committed, mental state, and overarching benefit to communities.
    Which ones? And why?

    And as I mentioned, we donít need prisons in order to separate someone from society.
    Last edited by RChildress107; 01-16-2019 at 02:05 PM.

  3. #103
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    How do you separate killers, pedophiles and rapists from society without prisons?

  4. #104
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    I agree with ADT in that there is no place for a privately owned prisons for any reason whatsoever.

    If people commit violent crimes, they need to be in prison. If people rob banks (even with a note and a finger), they need to be in jail. Pedophiles, kidnappers, rapists need to be in prison.
    Why?

  5. #105
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    To protect society. There's no rational reason to let people who have proven to be willing to murder and rape people to walk the streets. It's even crazier to let pedophiles out with no punishment.

  6. #106
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    How do you separate killers, pedophiles and rapists from society without prisons?
    House arrest and electronic monitoring come to mind. Iím also interested in Danish ďprisonsĒ but not as a form of criminal punishment. I donít think all convicted murderers, rapists, and pedophiles need to be completely removed from society.

    I recognize that there are certain individuals who pose such a large threat to society that their contact with the rest of society must be extremely limited if not outright eliminated. I understand that as a society we need institutions to achieve tha separation and that at least currently one of those institutions needs to be a physical space where individuals are involuntarily confined.

    I reject the idea that the criminal justice system or the prison system are the proper institutions to achieve that separation or could ever be reformed (on a practical or even theoretical basis) to become such institutions.

  7. #107
    Primary OGB Benefactor
    BiffTannen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Hill Valley
    Posts
    40,403
    If we do away prisons gun sales are going through the roof !

  8. #108
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    To protect society. There's no rational reason to let people who have proven to be willing to murder and rape people to walk the streets. It's even crazier to let pedophiles out with no punishment.
    This isnít a choice between prison and no punishment or negative consequences. Iím not sure why you keep mentioning that.

    Do you have data that indicates all murderers and rapists pose a significant threat of murdering and raping again if left to their own devices? If so, can you not think of any less restrictive alternatives to protecting the public than prison?

    And unless you are suggesting mandatory life sentences, do you have evidence that prison makes individuals who commit those crimes less likely to do so when they get out?

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by RChildress107 View Post
    Which ones? And why?

    And as I mentioned, we donít need prisons in order to separate someone from society.
    Public safety: pre-meditated murder, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sexual assault and sexual battery, rapists (non-exhaustive list)
    Mental state: think psychopaths where there is no potential for mental rehabilitation (also could fall under public safety, but whichever is fine)
    Benefit to society: child abusers, domestic abusers, pedophiles, anti-vaxxers (joking (kind of))

    I will stipulate to your statement that we donít need prisons to separate citizens from society if you stipulate that as of 1/16/2019, there has not been demonstrated a better method in the United States. Iím all for prison reform as Iíve said, but due to a plethora of reasons (a large one being we already suck at putting people into prison when itís the only option let alone one of many options), we should work to improve what we have already in place. Fix the problem we are currently having with prison infrastructure (literally and metaphorically) before trying to reinvent the wheel on it.

  10. #110
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    I do believe in a range of alternatives to prison for non-violent criminals. This doesn't mean the prisons are designed and operated as they are today. Locations should have treatment, education and trade training.

  11. #111
    So Home arrest for murder? Who pays for the home? Is it your home or a Home specifically designed for said murderer? Isnít the home a prison, in fact solitary confinement? Do you get to leave your home ever? Whatís in my home? Stuff thatís already there or once again specific prisoner homes?

  12. #112
    I disagree with you
    ImTheCaptain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    46,053
    Isnít violent crime at an all time low after decades of decline? How does hat square with the ďprisons donít work and police are garbageĒ theory

  13. #113
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    To protect society. There's no rational reason to let people who have proven to be willing to murder and rape people to walk the streets. It's even crazier to let pedophiles out with no punishment.
    This isnít a choice between prison and no punishment or negative consequences. Iím not sure why you keep mentioning that.

    Do you have data that indicates all murderers and rapists pose a significant threat of murdering and raping again if left to their own devices? If so, can you not think of any less restrictive alternatives to protecting the public than prison?

    And unless you are suggesting mandatory life sentences, do you have evidence that prison makes individuals who commit those crimes less likely to do so when they get out?

  14. #114
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheCaptain View Post
    Isnít violent crime at an all time low after decades of decline? How does hat square with the ďprisons donít work and police are garbageĒ theory
    Correlation =\= causation

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    So Home arrest for murder? Who pays for the home? Is it your home or a Home specifically designed for said murderer? Isnít the home a prison, in fact solitary confinement? Do you get to leave your home ever? Whatís in my home? Stuff thatís already there or once again specific prisoner homes?
    what if they live in an apartment complex? what if they live with their parents? what if they live in an RV?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    There are a multitude of reasons why prisons are necessary for a stable society, but the biggest issue is how those prisons are funded and what motivations those in power have for populating those prisons.

    I am of the opinion that there should be no private prisons whatsoever. All aspects of the criminal justice system should use public funds. To do this, funding would need to increase greatly and there would need to be aggressive endeavors towards reducing the amount of crimes that require jail time (not to mention reducing the number of crimes, period). But there still needs to be some mechanism of holding a select group of citizens separate from society at large due to inherent risks in crimes committed, mental state, and overarching benefit to communities.
    What are those reasons?

    I think we are asking how prisons, as they are currently institutionally managed, can provide the necessary function that you wish them to.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post

    I will stipulate to your statement that we donít need prisons to separate citizens from society if you stipulate that as of 1/16/2019, there has not been demonstrated a better method in the United States. Iím all for prison reform as Iíve said, but due to a plethora of reasons (a large one being we already suck at putting people into prison when itís the only option let alone one of many options), we should work to improve what we have already in place. Fix the problem we are currently having with prison infrastructure (literally and metaphorically) before trying to reinvent the wheel on it.
    You don't mean build new ones do you? oof.

  18. #118
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    Public safety: pre-meditated murder, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sexual assault and sexual battery, rapists (non-exhaustive list)
    Mental state: think psychopaths where there is no potential for mental rehabilitation (also could fall under public safety, but whichever is fine)
    Benefit to society: child abusers, domestic abusers, pedophiles, anti-vaxxers (joking (kind of))

    I will stipulate to your statement that we donít need prisons to separate citizens from society if you stipulate that as of 1/16/2019, there has not been demonstrated a better method in the United States. Iím all for prison reform as Iíve said, but due to a plethora of reasons (a large one being we already suck at putting people into prison when itís the only option let alone one of many options), we should work to improve what we have already in place. Fix the problem we are currently having with prison infrastructure (literally and metaphorically) before trying to reinvent the wheel on it.
    Do all murderers pose a continued threat to public safety? Is there no less restrictive alternative to prison that would mitigate that threat?

    We donít put people in the prison system solely because of their mental state. We have a different system for that. Despite the abhorrent fact that our mental institutions our in as bad of shape as our prisons, they are two separate systems.

    Whatís the benefit to society?

  19. #119
    Rusty Larue

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winston-Salem thru 2020
    Posts
    10,970
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    So Home arrest for murder? Who pays for the home? Is it your home or a Home specifically designed for said murderer? Isnít the home a prison, in fact solitary confinement? Do you get to leave your home ever? Whatís in my home? Stuff thatís already there or once again specific prisoner homes?
    No. I donít think we should place someone under house arrest for committing murder. I donít support state-sanctioned violence as a punishment for crime.

    I do think that in certain cases home arrest would be an effective means of protecting the public from individuals who pose an immediate threat and would support that type of confinement if it was the least restrictive means necessary to keep the public safe and if the individual had been given the highest standards of due process.

  20. #120
    Banhammer'd
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    HB, CA
    Posts
    78,116
    Home arrest for violent criminals lends itself to more police in peaceful neighborhoods and possibly drones to follow these criminals. House arrest for violent criminals would be considered a joke by them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •