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Trump Directed His Attorney To Lie to Congress

Newenglanddeac said:
Damn it cville, you make a convincing case for waiting this out as painful as it may be.

Forcing him to resign as part of an agreement to go easy on Don Jr and Ivanka could be another way out of this too.
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Like he gives a shit about Don Jr and Ivanka. He would let them go to prison without a second thought.
 
Another question is does he even give a shite about Don Jr and Ivanka, other than he'd probably like to do 1 of them. Not saying he doesn't and is a complete psychopath. He probably at least qualifies as a narcissistic personality disorder on the DSM5, but I don't know that he's a complete psychopath. But I'm kinda doubting he'd agree to resign the office or let his criminal prosecution be influenced by that of any of his kids'.
 
cville deac said:
Another question is does he even give a shite about Don Jr and Ivanka, other than he'd probably like to do 1 of them. Not saying he doesn't and is a complete psychopath. He probably at least qualifies as a narcissistic personality disorder on the DSM5, but I don't know that he's a complete psychopath. But I'm kinda doubting he'd agree to resign the office or let his criminal prosecution be influenced by that of any of his kids'.
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I don’t know what thread it was on, long time ago, but pre-election in 2016 I did a DSM-V analysis of Trump for narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy. He nailed almost every criteria for both. If I can find the posts through the search function, I’ll bump, but I think he would 100% throw his kids under the bus because he would be incapable of understanding why that’s so reprehensible.
 
There's no question Trump would screw his kids or anyone to protect himself. He would lie about them. He would invent evidence. There's nothing he wouldn't do.
 
cville deac said:
I don't know that we're ever going to have a successful impeachment and conviction, even if our republic were to last another 2 centuries. The Clinton impeachment was a weak and partisan show that never had a serious chance of succeeding. Nixon didn't have to be impeached because, after enough damning Watergate evidence came out, Goldwater and a respected house Pub went to Nixon and told him he didn't have the votes and needed to resign. You just can't successfully impeach and convict solely on party lines. You need erosion of Pub support in congress so that it is bipartisan. In order to get that, you need erosion of Trump support among Pub voters. And we're not there yet. May never get there.

The other thing is the timing. Ph is right. This impeachment and trial would be at least several months because there is a mountain of evidence to sift through, compared to the rather easy case of Bubba lying about a blow job. And you probably can't do that in an election year from a practical political perspective, which means you'd probably have to begin such proceedings by sometime this summer. And we don't have the whole Mueller report yet - we just have a few leaks and info from some investigative reporting. We don't do a damn thing till Muller releases his report.

And for those who want to impeach right away, here's our worst nightmare. Let's say you do impeach. The senate then acquits Trump on all charges. Then you want to prosecute him criminally after his presidency. That acquittal in the senate will go a long way toward establishing reasonable doubt in the minds of 12 of our not the sharpest tools in the shed. That's assuming double jeopardy hasn't attached to begin with. (I'm guessing an impeachment and trial and the senate wouldn't count as a 1st trial for double jeopardy purposes, but I'm not positive.) And it's not like we can try and execute him like Khrushchev did to Beria, so let's be patient.

Look, I get we're all frustrated, and y'all want your pound of flesh. But I'd rather not engage in a political stunt that is bound for failure when that might hurt a prosecutor's chance of getting a conviction at some point later - or sooner if it is determined that criminal charges can be brought against a sitting president. And all we have right now, in terms of enough evidence to convict, is evidence of obstruction of justice. But what Mueller may still be sitting on could go a whole lot further than that. I'm thinking money laundering, income tax evasion, conspiring with a hostile foreign power to influence an election, being an agent of a foreign power without registering as such - you know, some potentially treasonous stuff. I could give a shite about a pee pee tape or even obstruction, which is what Bubba was impeached on. If Trump has been engaged in more serious crimes, I want him in jail for the rest of his life - sorry abolitionists. But that ain't happening from a partisan impeachment.
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I disagree with most of this post, but a couple things stand out.

1. In my opinion, the best way to erode public support is to impeach him. You don't think that presenting clear evidence for the world to see at the impeachment hearings would erode public support? I know there are some crazies for whom it literally doesn't matter what crimes he commits, but you are never getting them no matter how long you wait.

2. Yes, impeachment and trial would last at least several months. For me, that's a great argument to start it now, especially if you have clear evidence of an impeachable offense. There's no rule that says we have to wait for all the evidence to be collected from all the crimes. He is not going on criminal trial before the senate on many charges. It's binary, remove or don't remove. If your argument is that the senate is too partisan/clownish to convict based on clear evidence of felonies, then why would proof of 20 felonies be different than proof of 3 in their mind? No reason to wait if nothing will convince them anyway.

3. Even if the senate doesn't vote to remove him, I think the politics for Trump and the GOP would be terrible, and they would have to decide if he is going to be on the ticket again in 2020. I think that is a terrible situation for the GOP.

4. I don't know if him surviving impeachment would make him less likely to get convicted in a criminal court, but honestly, I don't really care. The important thing is not that Donald Trump goes to jail. That doesn't actually help get kids out of cages or get people healthcare. The important thing is that he (and the GOP in general) is out of power as quickly as possible.

5. Impeaching him for cause is the opposite of a political stunt. Waiting for the investigation to be over because that will play better politically is a political stunt.
 
yeah, waiting and allowing him access to Presidential power for longer is a terrible play
 
tiltdeac said:
I disagree with most of this post, but a couple things stand out.

1. In my opinion, the best way to erode public support is to impeach him. You don't think that presenting clear evidence for the world to see at the impeachment hearings would erode public support? I know there are some crazies for whom it literally doesn't matter what crimes he commits, but you are never getting them no matter how long you wait.

2. Yes, impeachment and trial would last at least several months. For me, that's a great argument to start it now, especially if you have clear evidence of an impeachable offense. There's no rule that says we have to wait for all the evidence to be collected from all the crimes. He is not going on criminal trial before the senate on many charges. It's binary, remove or don't remove. If your argument is that the senate is too partisan/clownish to convict based on clear evidence of felonies, then why would proof of 20 felonies be different than proof of 3 in their mind? No reason to wait if nothing will convince them anyway.

3. Even if the senate doesn't vote to remove him, I think the politics for Trump and the GOP would be terrible, and they would have to decide if he is going to be on the ticket again in 2020. I think that is a terrible situation for the GOP.

4. I don't know if him surviving impeachment would make him less likely to get convicted in a criminal court, but honestly, I don't really care. The important thing is not that Donald Trump goes to jail. That doesn't actually help get kids out of cages or get people healthcare. The important thing is that he (and the GOP in general) is out of power as quickly as possible.

5. Impeaching him for cause is the opposite of a political stunt. Waiting for the investigation to be over because that will play better politically is a political stunt.
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Re: #1-- I might be jaded by social media, but there just might be 25-30% of the US population that will steadfastly refuse to believe any evidence that is shown.
 
AsesinoDeTortugas said:
I don’t know what thread it was on, long time ago, but pre-election in 2016 I did a DSM-V analysis of Trump for narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy. He nailed almost every criteria for both. If I can find the posts through the search function, I’ll bump, but I think he would 100% throw his kids under the bus because he would be incapable of understanding why that’s so reprehensible.
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I’m eagerly awaiting the follow-up study, “Is water wet?”

But yeah, Trump is 100% a narcissistic sociopath. I’ve said it before, he’s not racist, he’s a sociopath.
 
tiltdeac said:
I disagree with most of this post, but a couple things stand out.

1. In my opinion, the best way to erode public support is to impeach him. You don't think that presenting clear evidence for the world to see at the impeachment hearings would erode public support? I know there are some crazies for whom it literally doesn't matter what crimes he commits, but you are never getting them no matter how long you wait.

2. Yes, impeachment and trial would last at least several months. For me, that's a great argument to start it now, especially if you have clear evidence of an impeachable offense. There's no rule that says we have to wait for all the evidence to be collected from all the crimes. He is not going on criminal trial before the senate on many charges. It's binary, remove or don't remove. If your argument is that the senate is too partisan/clownish to convict based on clear evidence of felonies, then why would proof of 20 felonies be different than proof of 3 in their mind? No reason to wait if nothing will convince them anyway.

3. Even if the senate doesn't vote to remove him, I think the politics for Trump and the GOP would be terrible, and they would have to decide if he is going to be on the ticket again in 2020. I think that is a terrible situation for the GOP.

4. I don't know if him surviving impeachment would make him less likely to get convicted in a criminal court, but honestly, I don't really care. The important thing is not that Donald Trump goes to jail. That doesn't actually help get kids out of cages or get people healthcare. The important thing is that he (and the GOP in general) is out of power as quickly as possible.

5. Impeaching him for cause is the opposite of a political stunt. Waiting for the investigation to be over because that will play better politically is a political stunt.
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ImTheCaptain said:
yeah, waiting and allowing him access to Presidential power for longer is a terrible play
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What do you think will change under Pence? Pence isn’t letting kids out of cages.

Coach O said:
Re: #1-- I might be jaded by social media, but there just might be 25-30% of the US population that will steadfastly refuse to believe any evidence that is shown.
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Exactly. And another 10-15% will think impeachment is purely partisan unless Republicans convict. They’ll say “The Democrats did what Republicans did to Clinton.”
 
he's reprehensible im not sure i buy the argument that Pence is a carbon copy of donald trump.
 
There is literally nothing Mueller could produce that would get the votes needed in the Senate. Mitch McConnell would walk through hell to stonewall the process. The rubes don’t care. They won’t care. They will very much care if they perceive RHINOs are turning on their great orange hope.
 
Coach O said:
Re: #1-- I might be jaded by social media, but there just might be 25-30% of the US population that will steadfastly refuse to believe any evidence that is shown.
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I think you are correct. The assumption that as evidence comes out more and more people will turn against Trump assumes that people won't consider it all #FakeNews and #DeepState threats to our way of life. There is plenty of evidence out there already. Trump definitely violated campaign finance laws, and we know that his former campaign manager and former national security violated violated national security and failed to register as foreign agents, while working for the Trump campaign, but sailor and moonz keep pushing conspiracy theories about FISA and rogue FBI agents and Angus pops by every so often to highlight Democrat tolerance hypocrisy. Cult 45 is highly likely to stand by their man regardless.
 
PhDeac said:
What do you think will change under Pence? Pence isn’t letting kids out of cages.
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Pence would be pretty impotent for the remainder of this term. Does anybody remember Gerald Ford's great accomplishments?
 
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