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IF we increase our debt limit,

jhmd2000

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...what's the plan to pay it back?

Does anyone have any clue on what our real plan is repay all this debt? If not, how can we consider borrowing money under those conditions?

In the absence of a plan to repay the loan, is it immoral to do so, or just irresponsible?
 
The Republican party pretty much wrote the book on borrowing without plans to pay the debt back, so look inward for your answers.
 
The Republican party pretty much wrote the book on borrowing without plans to pay the debt back, so look inward for your answers.

So...that's one person without a plan.

One down, 299,999,999 to go.
 
Slowly start trimming the deficit and trying to grow/inflate until it is back at a manageable level as a % of GDP.

We will likely never have every cent of debt paid off nor do we need to.
 
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interesting.

sounds like deal is coming next week, after they meet again on Sunday. staffs meet tomorrow-sat.

----

@chucktodd Chuck Todd
It's early in the talks, but based on folks I've been talking to in debt talks, there's real momentum for a big deal, er, "grand bargain."
 
Put em in a room...bring in Alan Simpson with the authority not to let them leave withotu his permission.
 
fed-revenue-overall.jpg


It is a spending problem, not a revenue problem...
 
Slowly start trimming the deficit and trying to grow/inflate our way out of it.

My fear is that our growth is so concentrated in the upper echelons, there's no way for the "whole" to grow at the net level at the rates we're going.

On the subject of growth, I was talking with a really smart business cat lately (an actual, no shit kidding member of MENSA who I should mention is a goat farmer on the side, only b/c I love that fact). I lamented my concerns about the absence of jobs for the middle class, and asked him his theory about how the market was so bullish when everything else was so terrible. He shared me with his views on why companies are making such strong profits, mostly for two reasons: 1) the recession forced them to trim the fat off their books, which led a lot of them to dump labor costs that they've learned they didn't need to carry in the first place, and 2) the real money is in the i.p.

By way of several examples, he mentioned that some absurdly high percentage of the iPad's profit is in the original design and in holding the patent. I don't recall the data, but the lowest profit margin is on the manufacture. So...the real money is retained here CONUS, even though the manufacture is overseas. Same thing with a tree-trimming attachment that Weyer is using: somebody (US) designed this "snatch and grab" device where this claw attaches to the tree (sitused in Russia), circ saws scope out and detach it from mother Earth, the claw then turns the stick perpendicular as other saws clean it along the circumference while the crane rotates at the base to re-orient over the hauling truck, and those same saws rotate out and cut the damn thing to spec ten seconds after it was still growing; all based on data entered into the computer before the sun rose that morning. The guy who invented the device makes ---on a per Siberian tree basis in---more than the cussin' Russian who got out of bed that day and left his family to go pull eight hours in the cab (and obviously, infinitely more than the six guys who are now unemployed since their no longer needed). Once again, the information economy values the idea over the labor. The catch now is that the ideas are getting so advanced they are not just superseeding the actual labor, their displacing it entirely.

If our "growth" strategy is just to punitively tax "the guy" at the top, he and his idea can/will re-locate outside of our jurisdiction 10x easier than you could move a factory ten years ago (or now...see Boeing, Washington State v. South Carolina). If we soak the top five percent, they'll just leave. They've never been more portable. Isn't that right, California?


I think to capitalize on that front, we have to out-innovate the rest of the world, and we have to democratize that imperative out of the upper echelons. It's fine that the Silicon Valleys and RTPs are getting it, but its foolish to think turning the 5% of our six figures incomes into seven figure incomes is going to do anything for the people who used to work in the shuttered mills and furniture factories.

A good first step would be an effort (a sincere one this time, not a campaign promise) at domesticating energy production. We have the option to run our cars and trucks on ethanol, electricity and natural gas, rather than pay the Saudis to do run them for us (and that's about the best thing that happens when we pay the Saudis). Ethanol grown from American corn is concept that can actually get the jingoistic, A-rab-hatin' O'Reilly-factor crowd to agree with the Hippies. Name another issue ....but we still won't do it. WTFrenchToast?

If our plan is to "grow" our way back into solvency, what steps are we really taking towards growth and becoming more competitive?
 
I count two.

I'm against raising the debt limit, so I don't need to be advocating the plan to repay debt I'm against. My plan is not to borrow in the first plan. It's important to point out that my plans works.

If you're for borrowing the money, you have to be for paying it back. If you will an end, you must will the means to that end, eh teach?
 
fed-revenue-overall.jpg


It is a spending problem, not a revenue problem...

What could you buy in 1965 for $1 that you can but for $3 today?

Houses have gone many more times than that.

Fries at MCDs were $0.15...now you might get them for $1.

A Mustang cost $2499. how much is it now?

Also our GDP in 1965 was about $2.8-2.95T with tax revenues of about $600-700B.

Today our GDP is in excess of $14T with tax revenues of $2.15T.

We are paying LESS in taxes in relation to the value of economy.

In fact if we paid the same percentage of GDP in taxes, we wouldn't be having a serious deficit problem.

Your premise is total BS.
 
My brother, who is an incredible corporate tax mind, is a sheep farmer on the side.
 
I'm against raising the debt limit, so I don't need to be advocating the plan to repay debt I'm against. My plan is not to borrow in the first plan. It's important to point out that my plans works.

If you're for borrowing the money, you have to be for paying it back. If you will an end, you must will the means to that end, eh teach?

So you think we should default? Really?

And I really don't worry about all the wealthy expating out of the country? Where are they going to go? Any place else with the kind of things that people with money want to do tax income also. You can't compare state hopping with leaving the country.

And this idea that we are in danger of taxing anybody to death just doesn't match reality. Groundless fear.
 
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So you think we should default? Really?

No. "Default" only applies to indebtedness. We can't default on something we don't owe.

We service our debt to stay current (thereby avoiding default), then prioritize the rest. That way we cut/tax once today, rather than having to cut/tax twice tomorrow. I'm not against raising taxe....sorry, "making revenue adjustments." It's better than borrowing without a plan to pay back...and it just might help us be more accountable for our choices, rather than continuing to mortgage our kids futures to pay for current discretionary spending.
 
No. "Default" only applies to indebtedness. We can't default on something we don't owe.

We service our debt to stay current (thereby avoiding default), then prioritize the rest. That way we cut/tax once today, rather than having to cut/tax twice tomorrow. I'm not against raising taxe....sorry, "making revenue adjustments." It's better than borrowing without a plan to pay back...and it just might help us be more accountable for our choices, rather than continuing to mortgage our kids futures to pay for current discretionary spending.


I think your idea would be a disaster. The stock market would plummet, people would freak out, business activities and tax revenues would decrease, causing us to address the debt ceiling again. It would be a spiral down to the bottom.

We need to manage our way out of this situation.
 
I think your idea would be a disaster. The stock market would plummet, people would freak out, business activities and tax revenues would decrease, causing us to address the debt ceiling again. It would be a spiral down to the bottom.

We need to manage our way out of this situation.

Indeed, we are too big to fail. If we don't take these measures, unemployment will skyrocket to 8%. We must take these emergency measures now to avoid certain economic death.

Sincerely,

2009

ETA: That wasn't intended to be sarcastic; only to point out that we've tried borrowing our way out of trouble, only to get deeper in it. I'm open to ideas, but would like to be assured that there are some before we sink even further into our familiar quicksand of the easy "answer."
 
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That's assuming our economic problems couldn't be worse, which I think is a very faulty assumption. I seem to recall people predicting that the stock market wouldn't hit 10K again for a decade just two years ago.

Construction was a huge part of our employment base, and until housing starts start to come back, unemployment is going to be higher. They will eventually, and have started to in certain pockets.
 
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