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Donald Impeachment

 
Ron Johnson is lying, weak, dilettante and sycophant who cares more about currying favor with Trump than he about protecting the Constitution and the rule of law.
 
Lt. Col. Vindman should know he's intel and not domestic and should stay in his lane.

When he witnessed a wrong doing, he should've ignored it and hoped a domestic investigator found out about it.
 
Townie, it is possible that our intelligence community has stepped up influence in domestic politics as foreign actors have stepped up their influence in domestic politics?
 
A democracy always has to keep a strong oversight eye on its intelligence and law enforcement agencies, as they are potential threats to democratic rule and accountability. There is certainly plenty of reason to be concerned about the growing reach of intel agencies in the modern digital age, deepfakes, social media disinformation etc.

That said, let's look at how the last two presidents have been treated.

There are plenty of Republicans working in intel and law enforcement, and probably a lot of them were not big fans of Obama. But Obama operated a clean ship and there was no intel uprising to undercut or get rid of him. One could also of course make the argument that Obama gave them plenty of free rein to do what they wanted and they liked him for that, but that's pretty speculative. What is factually observable is the Obama administration was not into committing high crimes and misdemeanors on the reg, and the intel and law enforcement agencies didn't make any noticeable attempt to interfere in the government.

Trump, on the other hand, does commit high crimes and misdemeanors on the reg, and is also generally incompetent at intel, foreign policy, and everything else. He does seem to like torture and war crimes, and he wants to "take the gloves off", but maybe that stuff has gone out of fashion with most of the intel types, at least the leadership. So we have lifelong career intel and law enforcement and military types stepping up to say "hey, this stuff isn't right" and doing so through proper channels and chain of command.

I just don't think this record supports a narrative of the intel community meddling in the democratic process.
 
PhDeac said:
Townie, it is possible that our intelligence community has stepped up influence in domestic politics as foreign actors have stepped up their influence in domestic politics?
Click to expand...


And as those foreign actors have found more willing/cooperative US pols.
 
Deacon923 said:
A democracy always has to keep a strong oversight eye on its intelligence and law enforcement agencies, as they are potential threats to democratic rule and accountability. There is certainly plenty of reason to be concerned about the growing reach of intel agencies in the modern digital age, deepfakes, social media disinformation etc.

That said, let's look at how the last two presidents have been treated.

There are plenty of Republicans working in intel and law enforcement, and probably a lot of them were not big fans of Obama. But Obama operated a clean ship and there was no intel uprising to undercut or get rid of him. One could also of course make the argument that Obama gave them plenty of free rein to do what they wanted and they liked him for that, but that's pretty speculative. What is factually observable is the Obama administration was not into committing high crimes and misdemeanors on the reg, and the intel and law enforcement agencies didn't make any noticeable attempt to interfere in the government.

Trump, on the other hand, does commit high crimes and misdemeanors on the reg, and is also generally incompetent at intel, foreign policy, and everything else. He does seem to like torture and war crimes, and he wants to "take the gloves off", but maybe that stuff has gone out of fashion with most of the intel types, at least the leadership. So we have lifelong career intel and law enforcement and military types stepping up to say "hey, this stuff isn't right" and doing so through proper channels and chain of command.

I just don't think this record supports a narrative of the intel community meddling in the democratic process.
Click to expand...


This should be obvious to anyone paying the slightest attention and not brainwashed by Pub/Fox News lies.
 
Ok last three responses.

Shooshmoo said:
If Townie's a Greenwaldy, we've lost him.
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Greenwald is doing really important reporting in Brazil. He's risking his life and the life of his family there. That major outlets aren't publishing his work anymore and his reputation has been tarnished is largely because of his politics, which I can understand. But you can't really fault his reporting.

PhDeac said:
Townie, it is possible that our intelligence community has stepped up influence in domestic politics as foreign actors have stepped up their influence in domestic politics?
Click to expand...

Yes, and well said. Very good point.

Deacon923 said:
A democracy always has to keep a strong oversight eye on its intelligence and law enforcement agencies, as they are potential threats to democratic rule and accountability. There is certainly plenty of reason to be concerned about the growing reach of intel agencies in the modern digital age, deepfakes, social media disinformation etc.

That said, let's look at how the last two presidents have been treated.

There are plenty of Republicans working in intel and law enforcement, and probably a lot of them were not big fans of Obama. But Obama operated a clean ship and there was no intel uprising to undercut or get rid of him. One could also of course make the argument that Obama gave them plenty of free rein to do what they wanted and they liked him for that, but that's pretty speculative. What is factually observable is the Obama administration was not into committing high crimes and misdemeanors on the reg, and the intel and law enforcement agencies didn't make any noticeable attempt to interfere in the government.

Trump, on the other hand, does commit high crimes and misdemeanors on the reg, and is also generally incompetent at intel, foreign policy, and everything else. He does seem to like torture and war crimes, and he wants to "take the gloves off", but maybe that stuff has gone out of fashion with most of the intel types, at least the leadership. So we have lifelong career intel and law enforcement and military types stepping up to say "hey, this stuff isn't right" and doing so through proper channels and chain of command.

I just don't think this record supports a narrative of the intel community meddling in the democratic process.
Click to expand...

Obama was buddy-buddy with the intelligence community and expanded the reach of their influence across traditional party or ideological lines, from drones to surveillance to silencing whistleblowers. Of course they treated him well. And of course the intelligence community is unhappy with Trump, who has derided them since before his time in office and has pushed this dumb narrative about the deep state.
 
TownieDeac said:
Ok last three responses.



Greenwald is doing really important reporting in Brazil. He's risking his life and the life of his family there. That major outlets aren't publishing his work anymore and his reputation has been tarnished is largely because of his politics, which I can understand. But you can't really fault his reporting.



Yes, and well said. Very good point.



Obama was buddy-buddy with the intelligence community and expanded the reach of their influence across traditional party or ideological lines, from drones to surveillance to silencing whistleblowers. Of course they treated him well. And of course the intelligence community is unhappy with Trump, who has derided them since before his time in office and has pushed this dumb narrative about the deep state.
Click to expand...

The happy/unhappy axis is one angle, which supports the thesis that unhappy intel operatives = interference. This may or may not be true, and it ignores a huge compounding variable, which is that one administration not only makes intel "unhappy" but ALSO constantly commits crimes, engages in corruption, and publicly derides the Constitution and the rule of law. Using Occam's Razor, the obvious criminal/noncriminal axis is by far the most likely cause of the career officials pushing back on Trump vs. them being "unhappy".
 
Pubs really working to get at the heart of the matter with their questions.

[turned on live hearings about 15-20 minutes ago]
 
The Republican lawyer is out of his league.

Of course, Nunes tried to get Vidman to out the whistleblower. What a Russian supporting douchebag Nunes is.
 
Greenwald could very well be a good investigative journalist but he is so married to hero worship of whistleblowers against intelligence that he is pretty much blinded to anything else and has been effectively used by the right and russia.
 
Republican's main goal is trying to out the whistleblower, I see.
 
Now they're doing that thing where they pile up a bunch of paper and go "look at all that paper!"

gettyimages-893068456-8806670fd36486c19e63d897637838e3700f5fc5-s800-c85.jpg
 
avalon said:
Republican's main goal is trying to out the whistleblower, I see.
Click to expand...

The “hidden” identity of the whistleblower is the biggest joke in DC. Everyone knows who it is but has to pretend they don’t. I get that it’s procedure, but it’s bizarre.
 
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