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2019-20 MLB Hot Stove Thread...

Mariners may be mediocre to suck but at least we don't cheat - 2020!

My oh My
 
Being outraged about high tech sign stealing is so hypocritical. Since 1876 (the first awareness of sign stealing), baseball has been all about trying to get away with cheating. How about the spitball? How about stealing signs by having people in old school scoreboards? Using Vaseline or pine tar or other sticky substances or even emery boards to rough up baseballs? Corking bats? Steroids? Illegal signings of players?

There are a whole bunch more and probably many that we don't know about.

These guys were just better at it. To act holier than thou is hypocritical and humorous.

 
There is a vast difference between a specific player or pitcher trying to gain an advantage through legal or illegal acts and what the Astros did. If this wasn't penalized, there would really be no need for catchers calling pitches, they could just call it out over the loudspeaker.
 
RJKarl said:
Being outraged about high tech sign stealing is so hypocritical. Since 1876 (the first awareness of sign stealing), baseball has been all about trying to get away with cheating. How about the spitball? How about stealing signs by having people in old school scoreboards? Using Vaseline or pine tar or other sticky substances or even emery boards to rough up baseballs? Corking bats? Steroids? Illegal signings of players?

There are a whole bunch more and probably many that we don't know about.

These guys were just better at it. To act holier than thou is hypocritical and humorous.

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Keep on talking, Rick. That's what you're good at. (and nothing else)
 
no to victim shame, but no Astros opponents noticed the loud trash can banging before every offspeed pitch?
 
thatguy2016 said:
no to victim shame, but no Astros opponents noticed the loud trash can banging before every offspeed pitch?
Click to expand...
White Sox pitcher definitely realized what was happening in this video.

 
I was reflecting more on all that we know about what the Astros were doing, and came to thinking about Yu Darvish. The man got rocked twice, going 1.2 innings each in games 3 and 7 while giving up 4 and 5 runs. As I remember it, every time he tried to throw his slider, it just got absolutely rocked. From a non-Cubs fan here, but from what I've seen of Yu since, that shit mentally messed with him for a long, long time. He went from an arguably ace level guy to a guy that struggled to a 4.95 ERA in 2018. I just hate that for him, regardless of other factors at work in his decline. There are so many other players that probably got affected: guys that maybe got sent to the minors after getting rocked by the Astros and never made it back, guys that changed the way they throw their slider/changeup/curveball because they couldn't figure out why the Astros hit four homers off it, or guys that just lost confidence in a particular pitch for a month after an Astros game. That shit sucks, and its all because the Astros cheated in order to literally know what every pitch was going to be before it was thrown.

And for those arguing that what the Astros did isn't any different (RJ), you just couldn't be more wrong. This is using technology to immediately and accurately know what every single pitch is. That's unprecedented, and as someone that played baseball when I was younger, I just can't fathom how helpful it would be. Knowing Darvish's slider or Kershaw's curve was coming before you even see it impacts your swing decision making dramatically. They could just wait for and gear up for a fastball literally EVERY at bat. Even what the Yankees and Red Sox are accused of doing was using the replay cameras to learn what the signs were, and then using any runners on second to see and relay those signs. That's probably 3-10 AB's a game, compared to every damn pitch starting whenever they learned the sign sequence. What those teams are accused of doing is just using technology to be better at the form of sign stealing that has always existed. What the Astros did literally damages the integrity of the game, and because of that in my mind the Dodgers now won the 2017 WS.

Fuck the Astros.
 
thatguy2016 said:
no to victim shame, but no Astros opponents noticed the loud trash can banging before every offspeed pitch?
Click to expand...

Stadiums are loud. It's obvious to us because we know what to listen for. But also, as Ayo already posted some guys definitely noticed. Plus there were accusations against the Astros before this, including the Yankees whistling thing. I think in Manfred's report it mentions they tried multiple things, including whistling, before settling on the banging. So the Yankees probably also actively caught them in the act.

For anyone that hasn't seen it, go look up Hinch's interview about those Yankee's accusations. Makes him look like the most smug and arrogant asshole in the world given what we know now.
 
The fact that Crane gets off scot free and still gets to polish his ring is utter horseshit. Just shows how impotent every league commissioner really is when it comes to doling out meaningful punishment.
 
CantStandYa said:
The fact that Crane gets off scot free and still gets to polish his ring is utter horseshit. Just shows how impotent every league commissioner really is when it comes to doling out meaningful punishment.
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What did you want done to Crane? Aside from fining him (which I'm not even sure is something that can be done), I don't know how you punish him. You gonna force him to sell the team because of a player and bench coach directed cheating scheme?

I'm more upset that no players get punished. I knew they wouldn't be with the MLBPA, but they deserve it. Figure out which players were most involved and hand out some fines/suspensions. I don't care what team they play for now, they still cheated and should be punished. If this was a multi-player PED scandal from two years ago, you can bet your ass each player would be punished. This almost certainly affected game outcomes more than steroids would, but isn't being treated as such.
 
deacon14 said:
I was reflecting more on all that we know about what the Astros were doing, and came to thinking about Yu Darvish. The man got rocked twice, going 1.2 innings each in games 3 and 7 while giving up 4 and 5 runs. As I remember it, every time he tried to throw his slider, it just got absolutely rocked. From a non-Cubs fan here, but from what I've seen of Yu since, that shit mentally messed with him for a long, long time. He went from an arguably ace level guy to a guy that struggled to a 4.95 ERA in 2018. I just hate that for him, regardless of other factors at work in his decline. There are so many other players that probably got affected: guys that maybe got sent to the minors after getting rocked by the Astros and never made it back, guys that changed the way they throw their slider/changeup/curveball because they couldn't figure out why the Astros hit four homers off it, or guys that just lost confidence in a particular pitch for a month after an Astros game. That shit sucks, and its all because the Astros cheated in order to literally know what every pitch was going to be before it was thrown.

And for those arguing that what the Astros did isn't any different (RJ), you just couldn't be more wrong. This is using technology to immediately and accurately know what every single pitch is. That's unprecedented, and as someone that played baseball when I was younger, I just can't fathom how helpful it would be. Knowing Darvish's slider or Kershaw's curve was coming before you even see it impacts your swing decision making dramatically. They could just wait for and gear up for a fastball literally EVERY at bat. Even what the Yankees and Red Sox are accused of doing was using the replay cameras to learn what the signs were, and then using any runners on second to see and relay those signs. That's probably 3-10 AB's a game, compared to every damn pitch starting whenever they learned the sign sequence. What those teams are accused of doing is just using technology to be better at the form of sign stealing that has always existed. What the Astros did literally damages the integrity of the game, and because of that in my mind the Dodgers now won the 2017 WS.

Fuck the Astros.
Click to expand...

You can't possibly know that this was the reason Darvish had a bad 2018. He had a serious injury in 2018. To blame the Astros for that is total bullshit.

His 2019 was about the same as 2017.
 
deacon14 said:
What did you want done to Crane? Aside from fining him (which I'm not even sure is something that can be done), I don't know how you punish him. You gonna force him to sell the team because of a player and bench coach directed cheating scheme?

I'm more upset that no players get punished. I knew they wouldn't be with the MLBPA, but they deserve it. Figure out which players were most involved and hand out some fines/suspensions. I don't care what team they play for now, they still cheated and should be punished. If this was a multi-player PED scandal from two years ago, you can bet your ass each player would be punished. This almost certainly affected game outcomes more than steroids would, but isn't being treated as such.
Click to expand...

I think the rationale was to basically give players immunity in exhange for them providing information, and based on the practical difficulty on determining which players were involved and which were not.
 
deacon14 said:
I was reflecting more on all that we know about what the Astros were doing, and came to thinking about Yu Darvish. The man got rocked twice, going 1.2 innings each in games 3 and 7 while giving up 4 and 5 runs. As I remember it, every time he tried to throw his slider, it just got absolutely rocked. From a non-Cubs fan here, but from what I've seen of Yu since, that shit mentally messed with him for a long, long time. He went from an arguably ace level guy to a guy that struggled to a 4.95 ERA in 2018. I just hate that for him, regardless of other factors at work in his decline. There are so many other players that probably got affected: guys that maybe got sent to the minors after getting rocked by the Astros and never made it back, guys that changed the way they throw their slider/changeup/curveball because they couldn't figure out why the Astros hit four homers off it, or guys that just lost confidence in a particular pitch for a month after an Astros game. That shit sucks, and its all because the Astros cheated in order to literally know what every pitch was going to be before it was thrown.

And for those arguing that what the Astros did isn't any different (RJ), you just couldn't be more wrong. This is using technology to immediately and accurately know what every single pitch is. That's unprecedented, and as someone that played baseball when I was younger, I just can't fathom how helpful it would be. Knowing Darvish's slider or Kershaw's curve was coming before you even see it impacts your swing decision making dramatically. They could just wait for and gear up for a fastball literally EVERY at bat. Even what the Yankees and Red Sox are accused of doing was using the replay cameras to learn what the signs were, and then using any runners on second to see and relay those signs. That's probably 3-10 AB's a game, compared to every damn pitch starting whenever they learned the sign sequence. What those teams are accused of doing is just using technology to be better at the form of sign stealing that has always existed. What the Astros did literally damages the integrity of the game, and because of that in my mind the Dodgers now won the 2017 WS.

Fuck the Astros.
Click to expand...

Game 7 was in Dodger Stadium. Either way, the experience definitely rattled him, per his wifes twitter the last few days, not saying it had anything to do with this stuff. He was back to being elite in the 2nd half of last year, we'll see if that if that sticks.
 
DaDeacs said:
Game 7 was in Dodger Stadium. Either way, the experience definitely rattled him, per his wifes twitter the last few days, not saying it had anything to do with this stuff. He was back to being elite in the 2nd half of last year, we'll see if that if that sticks.
Click to expand...

RJKarl said:
You can't possibly know that this was the reason Darvish had a bad 2018. He had a serious injury in 2018. To blame the Astros for that is total bullshit.

His 2019 was about the same as 2017.
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The Darvish thing was just an anecdote towards my overall point, but that’s fair about Game 7 obviously. The fact that we don’t know how big of an impact the Astros cheating had on Darvish long term though is kind of my whole point. It’s plausible that they significantly impacted him mentally long term, and that’s bullshit. It’s also possible he was just old fashioned tipping pitches. Regardless, closing your eyes and saying it’s not that big of a deal without knowing the impact it had on situations like that isn’t really something I’m interested in.
 
deacon14 said:
The Darvish thing was just an anecdote towards my overall point, but that’s fair about Game 7 obviously. The fact that we don’t know how big of an impact the Astros cheating had on Darvish long term though is kind of my whole point. It’s plausible that they significantly impacted him mentally long term, and that’s bullshit. It’s also possible he was just old fashioned tipping pitches. Regardless, closing your eyes and saying it’s not that big of a deal without knowing the impact it had on situations like that isn’t really something I’m interested in.
Click to expand...

What you aren't interested in is anyone who disagrees with your baseless assertions.

You even contradicted your allegation about Game 7 by saying he could have been tipping his pitches or that he was playing against an excellent offensive team.

Then there is this:

https://jugssports.com/blog/if-stealing-signs-is-part-of-the-game-why-do-teams-get-so-upset/

The whole point of stealing signs from a catcher or a pitcher is to alert the batter to what’s coming. But some batters don’t want the help.

“Not all hitters really want to know what’s coming,” says former player Will Clark, who had a .303 career average. “Many do want to know—especially location—but there are a lot of guys who don’t. Either they’re afraid of being wrong or afraid they’ll over-swing.”

A 2004 article by ESPN reporter Tim Kurkjian supports that point. He wrote that both Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn—each in the Hall of Fame—preferred not to know what was coming. (Gwynn was known for studying tapes of his at-bats and opposing pitchers, sometimes during games, to gather mental data for his next at-bats.)

Tony Gwynn’s opinion on stolen signs was practical: “What if they’re wrong?” he said. He’s right—there’s no guarantee that the information is good.

That’s a lesson that George Bell—the AL MVP in 1987—learned the hard way. Once, a teammate signaled that a curve was coming, so Bell leaned into the pitch. It didn’t break, and the pitch hit him in the head. After that, Bell said he’d steal signs and pass them along, but he ignored any pinched pitch signals that came his way at the plate.

And speaking of stealing signs…just recently the Yankees accused the Red Sox of stealing signs from the Yankee dugout—with tools that included a smartwatch! Major League Baseball is investigating and will probably dole out penalties. Ironic, though, because Commissioner Rob Manfred has said in the past that stealing signs is just part of the game.

Selected references/resources: fangraphs.com/blogs/if-stealing-signs-is-part-of-the-game…; books.google.com/books Did+tony+gwynn+steal+signs; sabr.org/research/durocher-spymaster-how-much-did-giants-prosper-cheating-1951-finalist; theweek.com/articles/495902/everyone-cheats-baseball; si.com/vault/1991/04/15/123997/sign-language-is-giving-signs; nytimes.com/2001/02/01/ sports/sports-of-the-times-branca….

Everyone doesn't want the stolen signs.

What if they get some wrong? This could backfire

When playing the Astros, opponents may have used fake signs.

Just thinking someone might be stealing your signs can be valuable. Like Yogi said, "90% of this game is half mental".

I'm sorry to be using all sides. Having a simplistic, kneejerk reaction doesn't do anyone any good.
 
Gee wasn't there a memorandum sent out on September 15, 2017 specifically banning this? Arguing the merits of the memo is a pretty stupid defense at this point.

The rules were put in place, broken, and the exact people who the rules said would be penalized were, except Alex Cora who is getting his in a few weeks.
 
centerdeac said:
Gee wasn't there a memorandum sent out on September 15, 2017 specifically banning this? Arguing the merits of the memo is a pretty stupid defense at this point.

The rules were put in place, broken, and the exact people who the rules said would be penalized were, except Alex Cora who is getting his in a few weeks.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
RJKarl said:
What you aren't interested in is anyone who disagrees with your baseless assertions.

You even contradicted your allegation about Game 7 by saying he could have been tipping his pitches or that he was playing against an excellent offensive team.

Then there is this:

https://jugssports.com/blog/if-stealing-signs-is-part-of-the-game-why-do-teams-get-so-upset/

The whole point of stealing signs from a catcher or a pitcher is to alert the batter to what’s coming. But some batters don’t want the help.

“Not all hitters really want to know what’s coming,” says former player Will Clark, who had a .303 career average. “Many do want to know—especially location—but there are a lot of guys who don’t. Either they’re afraid of being wrong or afraid they’ll over-swing.”

A 2004 article by ESPN reporter Tim Kurkjian supports that point. He wrote that both Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn—each in the Hall of Fame—preferred not to know what was coming. (Gwynn was known for studying tapes of his at-bats and opposing pitchers, sometimes during games, to gather mental data for his next at-bats.)

Tony Gwynn’s opinion on stolen signs was practical: “What if they’re wrong?” he said. He’s right—there’s no guarantee that the information is good.

That’s a lesson that George Bell—the AL MVP in 1987—learned the hard way. Once, a teammate signaled that a curve was coming, so Bell leaned into the pitch. It didn’t break, and the pitch hit him in the head. After that, Bell said he’d steal signs and pass them along, but he ignored any pinched pitch signals that came his way at the plate.

And speaking of stealing signs…just recently the Yankees accused the Red Sox of stealing signs from the Yankee dugout—with tools that included a smartwatch! Major League Baseball is investigating and will probably dole out penalties. Ironic, though, because Commissioner Rob Manfred has said in the past that stealing signs is just part of the game.

Selected references/resources: fangraphs.com/blogs/if-stealing-signs-is-part-of-the-game…; books.google.com/books Did+tony+gwynn+steal+signs; sabr.org/research/durocher-spymaster-how-much-did-giants-prosper-cheating-1951-finalist; theweek.com/articles/495902/everyone-cheats-baseball; si.com/vault/1991/04/15/123997/sign-language-is-giving-signs; nytimes.com/2001/02/01/ sports/sports-of-the-times-branca….

Everyone doesn't want the stolen signs.

What if they get some wrong? This could backfire

When playing the Astros, opponents may have used fake signs.

Just thinking someone might be stealing your signs can be valuable. Like Yogi said, "90% of this game is half mental".

I'm sorry to be using all sides. Having a simplistic, kneejerk reaction doesn't do anyone any good.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be argumentative here, but that really misses the point. The Astros had a camera aimed directly at the signs for the entirety of games, and a person in the dugout tunnel full time decoding those signs. If the signs were fake or changed, they would know within a few pitches what the new ones are. So in that sense, there really isn’t any sort of argument to the “what if the stolen signs are wrong” thing you just posted. That applies to what teams do with a runner on second, not to this.
 
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