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Non-Political Coronavirus Thread

06deacon said:
If it clears the approval process what is the further concern? They tested it on more than like two people.
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And it'll be tested on even more when it's approved for 5-12. I'd rather get a feel for real-time application rather than taking the word of government entities and companies who have a vested interest in this approval process. I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'd rather somebody else's kids be first in line, just as i was happy having other adults be first in line before I went and got poked.

And other than my personal reticence on the matter, there is still the overriding question of do kids ages 5-12 really need to get a Covid vaccine given their very low risk? Or is the argument that we aren't doing it for their protection but the protection of others, in which case why aren't the "others" already vaccinated? Unfortunately, since the outset of this we have had people in leadership positions who were either too blase about the whole thing or too cautious and there have been very few willing to sit down and discuss risk/reward like adults.
 
People who are 65+ or have certain medical conditions can be fully vaccinated but still get really sick or die from COVID. Reducing community spread goes a long way towards protecting those people. Vaccinating kids reduces community spread. It’s not just the unvaccinated donks they are protecting, it’s also their 90 year old fully vaccinated grandma.
 
People think too black and white with covid outcomes, the well did you die aspect. Depending on the study but roughly 12% of kids between 2-12 that are infected by covid have symptoms that last greater than 5 weeks, many of those do make a full recovery within 3-4 months but of all infections something like 0.25-0.5% develop true long covid, a crippling potentially lifelong condition mimicking chronic fatigue syndrome. That’s something you wouldn’t want to wish on anyone let alone a child with decades of life left to live. Throw in the factor that the virus is going to go endemic, if you aren’t vaccinated you will be infected and there’s your reason to get your kid vaccinated regardless of age.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
Kids have a more robust immune system than adults. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about a kid's body overreacting to the vaccine and presenting problems. Yes, I realize that's why the dosage differs, etc... I am far more protective of my kid than I am of myself. I don't think there is anything unnatural or stupid about that. I'm definitely not a vax resister and I got mine as soon as-- actually before-- I was eligible.

Europe has not been masking their kids and don't appear to be in a hurry to vaccinate them because the risk is so small. They may change their tune in the future, but the US via the CDC has not had the same approach.

I am glad that my kid will not be initially eligible for a vaccine when they OK them for kids so that millions of other kids can get them before mine does. The real time and real life results from that will be far more telling for me than whatever studies Pfizer/Moderna put forth, much as it was for me when adults started getting them in bulk and not croaking.

I have to say that if you think it's bad now because some 300 lb Bubba who is old enough to make a decision on his own doesn't want his shot and dies, just wait until school districts start requiring shots for kindergartners.
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How we got here.
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
People think too black and white with covid outcomes, the well did you die aspect. Depending on the study but roughly 12% of kids between 2-12 that are infected by covid have symptoms that last greater than 5 weeks, many of those do make a full recovery within 3-4 months but of all infections something like 0.25-0.5% develop true long covid, a crippling potentially lifelong condition mimicking chronic fatigue syndrome. That’s something you wouldn’t want to wish on anyone let alone a child with decades of life left to live. Throw in the factor that the virus is going to go endemic, if you aren’t vaccinated you will be infected and there’s your reason to get your kid vaccinated regardless of age.
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OK, this is the best argument I've seen yet. I haven't heard this one.
 
Rafi said:
I was talking about all vaccines. I thought that was clear, especially after I referenced flu and tetanus in the next sentence. All vaccines can (and hopefully do) cause an immune response.
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Do the flu and tetanus vaccines generate immune responses that, for the majority of people, are worse what that they experience from the virus itself? Especially when we're talking about this particular subset of the population that experiences virtually no symptoms from the virus itself?
 
ImTheCaptain said:
People would leave their ill-feeling 12 yo home all day by themselves? Like 6-7 hours?
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I understand this board is the epitome of the WFH Elite bubble, but clearly you do have some perception of how the actual world works, no? Or at a minimum you are familiar with Ferris Bueller?
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
People think too black and white with covid outcomes, the well did you die aspect. Depending on the study but roughly 12% of kids between 2-12 that are infected by covid have symptoms that last greater than 5 weeks, many of those do make a full recovery within 3-4 months but of all infections something like 0.25-0.5% develop true long covid, a crippling potentially lifelong condition mimicking chronic fatigue syndrome. That’s something you wouldn’t want to wish on anyone let alone a child with decades of life left to live. Throw in the factor that the virus is going to go endemic, if you aren’t vaccinated you will be infected and there’s your reason to get your kid vaccinated regardless of age.
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Is there any data to suggest that, in children, the immune response generated from the vaccine is any stronger or longer-lasting than the immune response generated from Covid itself? According to this board from the summer, the fact that kids have been in school under horrible leadership since August, most should have gotten Covid already, right? Though obviously most would never know it unless some poor bastard was required to get tested. But since they've all already had Covid, is there any material reason for them to get the vaccine?

And I'm not anti-Covid-vaxx, my kids will probably get it at some point for check-the-box reasons like I did myself regardless of the minimal actual benefit. But I understand why people won't be rushing out to get their kids' shot with even lower actual benefits.
 
So the long-haul COVID studies for children appear to be lacking and all over the place. As near as I can tell from my awesome Google research, 12% is likely to be a high ballpark estimate. But again, the studies are lacking, probably because it's really fricking hard to lump in kids who have had Covid already and never knew they had it in the first place.

Hypothetically then, what is a number, percentage wise, that says to a person, "Yes, you should absolutely vaccinate your 5 year old child ASAP."? 12% for me would be an obvious yes, but what if that number is 1%? It's going to vary from person to person. And what is the definition of long haul Covid? If it's anything lasting longer than 8 weeks, how many cases peeter out before 12 weeks?
 
Chicken pox doesn't kill a whole lot of people but we vaccinate little kids for it every day.
 
BiffTannen said:
Chicken pox doesn't kill a whole lot of people but we vaccinate little kids for it every day.
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Unpopular opinion: The Public Health Spox have done this mission no favors with their certainty in the face of uncertainty. "Two weeks to slow the spread." "Just hold on until the vaccine." "Get the vax, ditch the mask". They've definitely moved the goal posts from "Vax our way to herd immunity" (heavily implied if not expressed) to "Well, hold on, nobody said the vax would keep you from getting sick."

I don't believe they were "lying" when they said those things, but the fact that much of the messaging has proven ultimately not to be as true as advertised feeds the skepticism. I am sure they made the judgment call about not coming fully clean with the "This is what we think, but you never know..." because they were afraid to feed the skepticism on the front end, but it's not crazy to be less trusting as the goal posts keep moving.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
So the long-haul COVID studies for children appear to be lacking and all over the place. As near as I can tell from my awesome Google research, 12% is likely to be a high ballpark estimate. But again, the studies are lacking, probably because it's really fricking hard to lump in kids who have had Covid already and never knew they had it in the first place.

Hypothetically then, what is a number, percentage wise, that says to a person, "Yes, you should absolutely vaccinate your 5 year old child ASAP."? 12% for me would be an obvious yes, but what if that number is 1%? It's going to vary from person to person. And what is the definition of long haul Covid? If it's anything lasting longer than 8 weeks, how many cases peeter out before 12 weeks?
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1% is like 5 kids in an decent sized elementary school. And vaccinating kids is probably going to keep that number lower rather than higher.
 
BiffTannen said:
Chicken pox doesn't kill a whole lot of people but we vaccinate little kids for it every day.
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For the whippersnapper generation anyway. Back in my day, we got the pox and liked it. And shingles later. Both times we got them we were walking uphill in the snow.

I think overall this will be less and less of a deal as time goes on and long term side effects of a vaccine are shown to be slim to none. The quick turnaround on the vaccine has some folks skeptical. The chickenpox vaccine took a long time to develop. A lot of these folks are just morons, some are just naturally apprehensive. A lot of it is bullshit politics too.

And as mentioned above, the messaging has been terrible. There's a subset out there wondering why they should get the vax if their goofy governor is going to make them wear masks forever.
 
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The messaging isn't that bad. Getting vaccines is straight forward and has never really been a problem. "Get vaccinated against this deadly disease" is a good message but now it's been made political. Now there is a bunch of BS out there intended to sabotage the message. People who buy into any of the BS then blame the messenger instead of the bullshitters.
 
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WokeandBroke said:
Unpopular opinion: The Public Health Spox have done this mission no favors with their certainty in the face of uncertainty. "Two weeks to slow the spread." "Just hold on until the vaccine." "Get the vax, ditch the mask". They've definitely moved the goal posts from "Vax our way to herd immunity" (heavily implied if not expressed) to "Well, hold on, nobody said the vax would keep you from getting sick."

I don't believe they were "lying" when they said those things, but the fact that much of the messaging has proven ultimately not to be as true as advertised feeds the skepticism. I am sure they made the judgment call about not coming fully clean with the "This is what we think, but you never know..." because they were afraid to feed the skepticism on the front end, but it's not crazy to be less trusting as the goal posts keep moving.
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The messaging has definitely been poor at times but it’s the morons not actually doing the things that are recommended that has caused the “shifting goal posts”. Then said morons turn around and say “see look that didn’t work!”.
 
I had a really strong reaction to J&J and have had some nerve issues ever since. I saw a neurologist who said it might have been caused by the vaccine, impossible to know for sure, but given that GBS is a risk factor I'm pretty convinced it was at least a contributing factor. (NB: not being ungrateful, I'm still glad I got vaccinated, but I will definitely not be boosting with J&J). And in general, the side effects of all the covid vaccines are significantly stronger than what we're used to with the annual flu shot, tetanus shot, etc. That, combined with the lower risk to little kids (which is probably even lower than studies suggest given that the number of infections in the 5-11 age range is almost surely undercounted), is what puts me in the ELC camp for now on the question of the 5-11 year olds.
 
My wife lost 2 giant patches of hair shortly after the vaccine and won't be doing it again.
 
I quit getting flu shots because they made me feel like crap. Significantly worse than the Pfizer vaccine. Might get one this year, though.
 
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