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2020 Presidential Election: Biden v. Trump

I wonder if there are any historical figures that have written about that?

About what worked a long time ago? I’m talking about now. I’ve made my good faith argument. You respond with snark.
 
About what worked a long time ago? I’m talking about now. I’ve made my good faith argument. You respond with snark.

You are not asking the question in good faith. You know that there are historical and modern political figures, from socialists to communists to anarchists, that have provided plenty of answers to your question. You know that they exist. You disagree with them, hence why you are a liberal and a democrat.
 
You’re not responding in good faith because I’ve explained why historic strategies are ineffective now. Things have changed.

Those strategies still ultimately depended on Congress to pass major legislation and the Courts ruling in big cases. The Republican Party has insulated themselves from the influence of the masses.

You haven’t responded to that.
 
I must have missed where you explained how historic strategies are ineffective now.
 
I must have missed where you explained how historic strategies are ineffective now.

See where I posted the Zinn article from 2005. If that’s not sufficient ask me a specific follow up question. Stop using snark and engage in respectful conversation. For fucks sake, why do you treat me like I’m your enemy? You need people like me on your side. What historical strategy has advanced a leftist agenda without involving voting to elect people sympathetic to the agenda?

We’ve all seen the memes about the good people who didn’t stand up to the Nazis. I’m sure there were also plenty of Social Democrats who worried that the left wasn’t far left enough and weren’t concerned enough with the Nazis.
 
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So what plan does she want to make happen that doesn't require having power at all levels of government?

Coming back around to this - if you had read her entire thread you would see that she is talking about how ridiculous it is for electoralist liberals to cry about Trump tearing down institutions and also claim that voting within those same institutions will save us from Trump.

You demand that she and other leftists have an electoral “plan” beyond voting, when we’re telling you flat out that electoral politics caused the problems we have, such that voting doesn’t work - in essence, American 2 party politics caused the problems that you say voting is the answer to. So if there is any rudimentary “plan”, it’s anti-capitalist, anti-racist revolution. It’s community actions and collectivism.

I struggle to speak more for Zoe, but from my familiarity with that gradient of anti-electoralism, there is a strong belief that American government needs to be torn down, because it’s so fundamentally broken that nothing good can be built upon it - it’s a complete disbelief in electoral reform under capitalism.

Returning to what DeacPops said about “nothing changing in 40 years”, it just seems like you really just don’t grasp the complete lack of faith that many many people have in 2 party electoralism.
 
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"So if there is any rudimentary “plan”, it’s anti-capitalist, anti-racist revolution. It’s community actions and collectivism."

To accomplish what aim and how? Please give some examples of how community actions and collectivism have worked in ways that did not involve government.

All the victories I can think of involved collective action that pushed Congress and the Supreme Court to the left. That won't work against Republicans who are entrenched on the right and live in an alternate reality. It's naive to believe the same changes from the 1960s and 1970s are possible now without electing people who are at least somewhat sympathetic.
 
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"So if there is any rudimentary “plan”, it’s anti-capitalist, anti-racist revolution. It’s community actions and collectivism."

To accomplish what aim and how? Please give some examples of how community actions and collectivism have worked in ways that did not involve government.

All the victories I can think of involved collective action that pushed Congress and the Supreme Court to the left. That won't work against Republicans who are entrenched on the right and live in an alternate reality. It's naive to believe the same changes from the 1960s and 1970s are possible now without electing people who are at least somewhat sympathetic.

“To accomplish what aim and how?”
An equitable, peaceful, and dignified society, I suppose. How? I don’t fucking know. A 3rd political party, nationalization of major resources, a guaranteed jobs program, nationalized health care, a transition to communism

“Please give some examples of community actions that have worked without the government”?

That’s an impossible question to answer because I don’t know what you consider successful: churches, private schools, food co-ops, food banks, free clinics, community programs like the Shriners or Kiwanis Clubs, are all private examples of collectivism.
 
So how do you plan to get a national jobs plan and other national and societal goals without involving the federal government?

Do you think Republican governments at all levels would tolerate these hyperlocal examples of collective success? Or would they use the power of government to tear them down?

Imagine you’re talking to some who is sick of the two party system and wants to know to build a democratic socialist society without voting.
 
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So how do you plan to get a national jobs plan and other national and societal goals without involving the federal government?

Do you think Republican governments at all levels would tolerate these hyperlocal examples of collective success? Or would they use the power of government to tear them down?

Imagine you’re talking to some who is sick of the two party system and wants to know to build a democratic socialist society without voting.

The current political configuration in America won’t allow for any of that, thus voting to uphold the current political configuration won’t allow for any of that.

 
Ok. So what does allow any of that within a political configuration that doesn’t allow any of that?
 
Ok. So what does allow any of that within a political configuration that doesn’t allow any of that?

Is it possible *within* our current political system? According to Zoe? No. According to me? No, but maybe President Bannon Trump will pass student loan forgiveness for people over 65 in our new Kevin Costner-esque Water World
it’s anti-capitalist, anti-racist revolution...

...American government needs to be torn down, because it’s so fundamentally broken that nothing good can be built upon it - it’s a complete disbelief in electoral reform under capitalism.
 
So how do we change the political system without voting?
 
So how do we change the political system without voting?

I guess you just burn a lot of shit down, take shit over, and kill a bunch of people. I have no idea. I don’t know what revolution looks like in America in 2020. It’s basically been a war everywhere else it’s happened. The hope is that the people and economic powers who are preventing massive change will concede under threat of revolution. Which is why so much effort is put into making people believe that revolution is both impossible and unnecessary.
 
Every other place where it has happened hasn’t had the military might of the US. The last internal attempt at revolution to replace the political system was by the South in the Civil War. Also I think it places where war worked, the people fighting the war weren’t the people who are against war itself.

Another question. If voting doesn’t matter, do you think progressive politicians like Bernie and AOC are suckers, tools of the establishment, or doomed to fail despite their earnest attempts at change? Why are they doing politics rather than full time organizing or taking up arms or whatever the real solution is?
 
“To accomplish what aim and how?”
An equitable, peaceful, and dignified society, I suppose. How? I don’t fucking know. A 3rd political party, nationalization of major resources, a guaranteed jobs program, nationalized health care, a transition to communism

“Please give some examples of community actions that have worked without the government”?

That’s an impossible question to answer because I don’t know what you consider successful: churches, private schools, food co-ops, food banks, free clinics, community programs like the Shriners or Kiwanis Clubs, are all private examples of collectivism.

You left out the Gulag and the necessary mass murders ... Oh wait!

I guess you just burn a lot of shit down, take shit over, and kill a bunch of people. I have no idea. I don’t know what revolution looks like in America in 2020. It’s basically been a war everywhere else it’s happened. The hope is that the people and economic powers who are preventing massive change will concede under threat of revolution. Which is why so much effort is put into making people believe that revolution is both impossible and unnecessary.

You didn't forget. How nice of you. You have an excellent blueprint for turning the United States into the Soviet Union. Now that's progress we can all proudly support.
 
 

Because it's known as Obamacare, so if they abolish it they can celebrate destroying the African Muslim's signature achievement. Other than the fact that they hate welfare generally (unless it's for Republicans, like farm aid) overturning everything Obama accomplished has been a prime goal for Trump and his base from the start.

ETA: And my guess is that surprising numbers of working-class Republicans don't know that Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing. I read an article years ago that noted that people in KY liked their ACA but wanted to abolish Obamacare; it turned out that many of them didn't understand that they were the same. When the SC overturns the ACA (and it will with Barrett) I'm sure there will be some people who will say "what the hell, I didn't think they would cancel my ACA along with that damned Obamacare!"
 
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Its hard to take progessives seriously when communist revolution is their realistic solution to our current political problems.
 
Its hard to take progessives seriously when communist revolution is their realistic solution to our current political problems.

It’s hard to take liberals seriously when incrementalist reform is their realistic solution to our current political problems.
 
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