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The QB School - What is the RPO Slow Mesh?

I'm happy to be alone with my take on this one, I've just never liked the slow mesh. Didn't like it in Clawson's first year, and still can't stand it. Its probably why I've never been fully onboard the Clawson hype train.

I can't stand how slow the decision making appears to be, and when you team it with a rapidly quick offense, it is not for me. Even when its clicking I'd rather play more practically. As others have pointed out its a deceptively good offense, when you break down the efficiency numbers they are always much lower than the overall statistics. Not to mention the toll it takes on your defense, there's a reason why we are so thin at the end of the year.

I can live with the RPO but get the ball out quick and maybe run some clock from time-to-time. Getting smashed by every team with superior athletes is not what I'm here for.
 
If you dig into the numbers our offensive stats last year were deceiving because we ran so many plays. Our yards-per-play was actually in the bottom half of FBS football teams. So our actual offensive efficiency wasn't as good as the total offense numbers would suggest.

I think the combination of the slow RPO and over utilizing Carney made our running attack pretty inept for good portions of the year last year. And our offense did lack some creativity at certain points last year. Not much to attack the edges.

this is a good point and I agree that many overstate the effectiveness of the offense

too much of the offense was dependent on great individual plays (particularly Sage) instead of scheme -- we very rarely used the middle of the field when passing or the edges when running

I'd be curious where we stacked up on plays per drive and percentage of drives that were five plays or fewer -- given our lack of defensive depth, I think the hurry-up had a lot of downside
 
an interesting stat: we led the country in third downs per game last year at 18.0

certainly related to the fact that we led the country in offensive plays per game
 
Exactly and it is why the Clawfence's ceiling will always be 8 wins. We have no chance against teams with superior talent. I can excuse the usage of it during his first couple of seasons when we were really bad and needed a gimmick to beat mediocre teams, but we need to be transitioning away from it if we every want to take the next step.

And the triple option is your solution?
 
Newman seems to be getting off easy in this discussion. There's a reason Greene had a 170+ yard game and in his other 3 combined didn't sniff half of that. Regardless of whether it was injury-based, Newman's midrange throws were dreadful in the 2nd half of the season, he locked on Hinton as if he was the only receiver we had left, and his decision making was slow at best, bordering on problematic.

Our mesh RPO doesn't rely on superior athletes like Sage and Scotty to make plays, Newman did. And he relied on himself because he's a badass running the ball. The Wolford/Hartman offenses look nothing like Newman's, despite running the same exact scheme.
 
There is no such thing as deceptively good offense. Either score points or don't.

Do teams with insane amounts of talent stop the RPO? Yes, but they stop everything that isn't 2019 LSU. The only solution is recruit better players. It would be stupid to start running the I formation just so Clemson only had enough time to win by 35 instead of 50 on the way to a 4-8 season.

Wake Forest: Scores more points than any time in program history

Some fans: Yeah, but did you see how many plays it took?
 
I'm happy to be alone with my take on this one, I've just never liked the slow mesh. Didn't like it in Clawson's first year, and still can't stand it. Its probably why I've never been fully onboard the Clawson hype train.

I can't stand how slow the decision making appears to be, and when you team it with a rapidly quick offense, it is not for me. Even when its clicking I'd rather play more practically. As others have pointed out its a deceptively good offense, when you break down the efficiency numbers they are always much lower than the overall statistics. Not to mention the toll it takes on your defense, there's a reason why we are so thin at the end of the year.

I can live with the RPO but get the ball out quick and maybe run some clock from time-to-time. Getting smashed by every team with superior athletes is not what I'm here for.


The RPO, as Wake runs it, give Wake a good chance to beat teams with peer or even somewhat better talent. No offense is going to be effective when the talent disparity is as great as it is between Wake and Clemson.

The Wake offense is, in some ways already based on "trickeration." It reads the defense and waits for the defensive key to make a move. Then the offense goes in a direction that makes that defender's play suboptimal. It was interesting that the analyzer in the video couldn't figure out which defender(s) the Wake QB was reading during the mesh. If he can't figure it out with multiple runs with a clicker, it makes it less likely that opposing defenses will figure it out during a game to change/disguise it.

If that gets Wake to 8 wins and a bowl regularly, that is a pretty good base. It will slowly lead to better recruiting. Recruits like to go where they have a chance to win and go to bowls and get swag and be on TV. It's a big improvement over Wake historic football, which is less than 40% wins over 110 seasons.

I wouldn't mind some variation in the RPO. Maybe a few more "hurry up and wait" plays where the offense is to the line quickly to limit defensive substitutions, but then waits and runs down the play clock before the snap.

Effective RPO is really, really dependent on the QB making the "right" read in a second or two. Not easy. He is less likely to make the right read if his judgement is influenced by perceived or actual issues with his own physical condition and/or the condition and/or capabilities of his team mates. Early in the season Jamie seemed to be making mostly "right" reads. Later in the season, that percentage seemed to drop and he seemed to be calling "QB run" a lot when other options looked to be better. Clicker guy noted that on several of the plays he showed. I'm sure Wake staff has a bunch more.

Football offensive plays are built on two basic underlying philosophies:

Power Football: Getting more and/or better blockers into an area of the field and running a play behind that group of blockers. In today's game, that is mostly seen in short yardage situations.

Deception football: Getting the defense to commit players to an area of the field and then running or throwing the ball somewhere else. This is the bulk of the modern game. Offenses like the old wing-T, triple option, RPO and others try to convince the defense that the ball is going one place so the defense commits to stopping that action, while the ball is actually going another place.

Receivers do this frequently, using moves and fakes to get the defenders to believe they are going one place, then going another.

Wake is not at this time (and probably never will be) in a position to routinely line up and just physically over match most opponents. Much more likely is that Wake will be even to somewhat overmatched physically. So some type of deception offense will need to be the norm if Wake is to have success.

The RPO offense plays to what should be a Wake football strength: smarts. QB reads certain defenders and does something (run or pass) that will make that action ineffective.
 
If Wake had only hired Pete Lembo (as many experts on this board advocated), odds are we wouldn't have an opportunity to nitpick an offense which has posted three of the top four total offense seasons in school history.

Sure the RPO has its flaws but my recommendation is to rewatch the Syracuse game and see the difference in how the offense clicks and looks night and day after Hartman enters the game. Hell - if he takes a little off his fastball we win that game (which we had zero business winning with the way we played for 60 minutes).
 
The reason Wake's defense hasn't been good the last few years is because we lost an all-world caliber coordinator, not because our offense is too fast.
 
I like the RPO mesh ok, but like others said, we need to sprinkle in some quick hitting plays to keep the defense honest. I like how our offense makes the defense play zone because they have to keep their eyes in the backfield for an extended period of time. There are known ways to defeat zone defenses at our disposal. It also makes the defense slower by making them read (longer) instead of just running to their assigned spots. I noticed the FSU LB's cheated into the LOS then tried backpedal and jump to defend the slant pass.

I noticed a lot of our passes did not hit WR's in stride, costing us a lot of YAC.
 
The reason Wake's defense hasn't been good the last few years is because we lost an all-world caliber coordinator, not because our offense is too fast.

Looking back it was quite shocking how well we masked the ineptitude of a Swavel led defense and somehow still managed to win the majority of our games (2017-21018 week 4) until he was fired. So yeah, I have no issues with the offense despite it not looking aesthetically pleasing at times.
 
The RPO, as Wake runs it, give Wake a good chance to beat teams with peer or even somewhat better talent. No offense is going to be effective when the talent disparity is as great as it is between Wake and Clemson.

The Wake offense is, in some ways already based on "trickeration." It reads the defense and waits for the defensive key to make a move. Then the offense goes in a direction that makes that defender's play suboptimal. It was interesting that the analyzer in the video couldn't figure out which defender(s) the Wake QB was reading during the mesh. If he can't figure it out with multiple runs with a clicker, it makes it less likely that opposing defenses will figure it out during a game to change/disguise it.

If that gets Wake to 8 wins and a bowl regularly, that is a pretty good base. It will slowly lead to better recruiting. Recruits like to go where they have a chance to win and go to bowls and get swag and be on TV. It's a big improvement over Wake historic football, which is less than 40% wins over 110 seasons.

I wouldn't mind some variation in the RPO. Maybe a few more "hurry up and wait" plays where the offense is to the line quickly to limit defensive substitutions, but then waits and runs down the play clock before the snap.

Effective RPO is really, really dependent on the QB making the "right" read in a second or two. Not easy. He is less likely to make the right read if his judgement is influenced by perceived or actual issues with his own physical condition and/or the condition and/or capabilities of his team mates. Early in the season Jamie seemed to be making mostly "right" reads. Later in the season, that percentage seemed to drop and he seemed to be calling "QB run" a lot when other options looked to be better. Clicker guy noted that on several of the plays he showed. I'm sure Wake staff has a bunch more.

Football offensive plays are built on two basic underlying philosophies:

Power Football: Getting more and/or better blockers into an area of the field and running a play behind that group of blockers. In today's game, that is mostly seen in short yardage situations.

Deception football: Getting the defense to commit players to an area of the field and then running or throwing the ball somewhere else. This is the bulk of the modern game. Offenses like the old wing-T, triple option, RPO and others try to convince the defense that the ball is going one place so the defense commits to stopping that action, while the ball is actually going another place.

Receivers do this frequently, using moves and fakes to get the defenders to believe they are going one place, then going another.

Wake is not at this time (and probably never will be) in a position to routinely line up and just physically over match most opponents. Much more likely is that Wake will be even to somewhat overmatched physically. So some type of deception offense will need to be the norm if Wake is to have success.

The RPO offense plays to what should be a Wake football strength: smarts. QB reads certain defenders and does something (run or pass) that will make that action ineffective.

RPO I can understand, but the slow mesh stuff is just so gross. Its like watching a parked small car get crushed by a barreling tractor trailer 10-15 times a game. Pass.
 
The reason Wake's defense hasn't been good the last few years is because we lost an all-world caliber coordinator, not because our offense is too fast.

nah

the reason is the lack of talent and depth
 
I'm happy to be alone with my take on this one, I've just never liked the slow mesh. Didn't like it in Clawson's first year, and still can't stand it. Its probably why I've never been fully onboard the Clawson hype train.

I can't stand how slow the decision making appears to be, and when you team it with a rapidly quick offense, it is not for me. Even when its clicking I'd rather play more practically. As others have pointed out its a deceptively good offense, when you break down the efficiency numbers they are always much lower than the overall statistics. Not to mention the toll it takes on your defense, there's a reason why we are so thin at the end of the year.

I can live with the RPO but get the ball out quick and maybe run some clock from time-to-time. Getting smashed by every team with superior athletes is not what I'm here for.

2019 - UNC, FSU
2018 - NCSU, UL
2017 - UL (w/ Lamar Jackson), NCSU, A&M

These are all games we won against teams with superior athletes (far superior in a few cases). There are potentially more, but the gap was closer, so I didn't include them.

Clawson still a "gutless pussy" in 2020?
 
The most painful offensive system to watch in college football for an entire season

I'd rather we ran the triple option

ANd yet we have had the most prolific of Wake Forest offense in our history. Wow, can't figure you out on this one?
 
2019 - UNC, FSU
2018 - NCSU, UL
2017 - UL (w/ Lamar Jackson), NCSU, A&M

These are all games we won against teams with superior athletes (far superior in a few cases). There are potentially more, but the gap was closer, so I didn't include them.

Clawson still a "gutless pussy" in 2020?

Not sure about now, but he definitely was during that one home game we lost to FSU when Blackmon was their QB.

Because that's the only time I've ever called him one. Huge puss that day.
 
Haha. Brasky is still offering football takes. This is like watching RJ argue statistics.
At least, this provides confirmation that the RPO is the way to go
 
ANd yet we have had the most prolific of Wake Forest offense in our history. Wow, can't figure you out on this one?
The last four years per Football Outsiders our offensive ranking in efficiency has been 60-70-29- 115. I wouldn't exactly consider that prolific offensive performance.
 
The last four years per Football Outsiders our offensive ranking in efficiency has been 60-70-29- 115. I wouldn't exactly consider that prolific offensive performance.

FFS. You can tell Wake has been a basketball school for 100 years.

Score points. Shove every other “metric” where the sun don’t shine.

“Today Wake lost 34-24, but they were real efficient.”

Or

“Today Wake beat Texas A&M 55-52 in a shootout.”

Some fucking metric... Jesus
 
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