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Football issues

macktheknife said:
This dumb shit about tuition and football players is a joke. Doesn't cost the University shit to have these people in classrooms. Football players work for food. That's the one cost to WFU. Other than that the books don't change if they are gone or here.
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The point isn't really what it costs the school, it is what it is worth to the student athlete. An athlete on a full ride to Wake Forest is getting a $200k+ education for free. Not to mention the ones that wouldn't have access to that education at all without football. Football players are playing for a lot more than food.
 
Deacon923 said:
Bravo to the posters who correctly pointed out that the reason athletic departments "lose money" and major colleges "break even" is because of how they choose to spend the massive buckets of cash raining down on them. The administrative and facilities bloat at Wake Forest even since I was there 20 years ago is almost comical, on both the athletic and academic sides. I'm sure it's the same at every other major school, if not worse.

Also I'm not sure what Adam Smith's invisible hand has to do with this. There is very clearly not a free market in college athletic services. There is a massive cartel called the NCAA that strictly prohibits a free market from operating. Booster clubs around the country would be happy to pay for top talent to win on Saturdays if the opportunity was available - hell, they already do in every legal way (the aforementioned waterslides and other ridiculous facilities) and in many prohibited ways.

We are not choosing between Adam Smith and Karl Marx. In the current system the people reaping all the cash benefits (coaches, college presidents, ADs, the NCAA execs) do all they can to make sure the labor doesn't get paid anything close to fair market value. Allowing the labor to negotiate for fair payment for services is not Marx, it's basic free market economics.
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Just to be accurate, there is no waterslide in the Clemson football facility. There is about everything else you want, but no waterslide.

The great majority of college football players are being paid more than fair market values for their services. Most of the revenue is driven by school names, alumni loyalty, the NCAA and conference systems, etc. The top players on the major teams are being paid far less than market value because of the contribution they make to driving that revenue stream. The only reasonable way I see to fix the system is to allow players to make money from their name and likeness - and then somehow deal with all the corruption that will drive.
 
Tobacco Road said:
You missed my point. People are saying non-revenue sports can’t exist in college without Football revenue. Some how, high school soccer is able to exist without college football revenue.
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Aren't high school sports paid for by tax dollars? At least for public schools...
 
scooter84 said:
The point isn't really what it costs the school, it is what it is worth to the student athlete. An athlete on a full ride to Wake Forest is getting a $200k+ education for free. Not to mention the ones that wouldn't have access to that education at all without football. Football players are playing for a lot more than food.
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Plus training table food, tutors, priority access to classes, free gear. Substantial benefits. Does all that cover each player’s worth to the school? Not in some instances. Yes and then some for others.
 
I feel like priority access to classes as a “benefit” might be bullshit given their team schedule probably takes priority over their class schedule. While I could not get all my first choice class offerings every semester, I was able to take pretty much every class and lab I wanted over my 4 years. I was able to plan my part-time work around that. I doubt the coaches plan practice around the students’ classes.

I’m interested if anyone has direct knowledge of how easy it is to schedule the classes/major a revenue athlete wants around program responsibilities. Maybe I am overly biased based on the UNC model.
 
Tobacco Road said:
I feel like priority access to classes as a “benefit” might be bullshit given their team schedule probably takes priority over their class schedule. While I could not get all my first choice class offerings every semester, I was able to take pretty much every class and lab I wanted over my 4 years. I was able to plan my part-time work around that. I doubt the coaches plan practice around the students’ classes.

I’m interested if anyone has direct knowledge of how easy it is to schedule the classes/major a revenue athlete wants around program responsibilities. Maybe I am overly biased based on the UNC model.
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Pretty sure there are science majors that football players just cannot take because lab times would interfere with practice and meetings
 
scooter84 said:
Just to be accurate, there is no waterslide in the Clemson football facility. There is about everything else you want, but no waterslide.

The great majority of college football players are being paid more than fair market values for their services. Most of the revenue is driven by school names, alumni loyalty, the NCAA and conference systems, etc. The top players on the major teams are being paid far less than market value because of the contribution they make to driving that revenue stream. The only reasonable way I see to fix the system is to allow players to make money from their name and likeness - and then somehow deal with all the corruption that will drive.
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If this is true, why is there so much resistance to the idea of paying them? If your theorem is correct, then in an unrestricted market, all the money will go to the top prospects, and the rest of the athletes will pay full tuition and beg for the chance to walk on the team and bask in their greatness.

The top prospects have the most labor value, but a top QB is useless without an offensive line, backs, and receivers. And all the starters need backups and practice squad guys to practice against.

I think the corruption angle is interesting. We all know that college athletics is full of "corruption" and has been forever. This is unsurprising, as the NCAA rules prohibiting athletes from receiving fair value for their services automatically creates a black market. The way to reduce "corruption" is to bring the compensation issues out in the daylight. If Don Flow wants to pay WFU's starting QB to be the face of his Lexus dealership and pay the O Line to stand in the background, so be it - that's better than boosters slipping cash under the table or the slimy world of basketball sneaker agents and runners we have now.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
Pretty sure there are science majors that football players just cannot take because lab times would interfere with practice and meetings
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Also hard to be an education major with morning classes and student teaching. Not impossible, but there are roadblocks.
 
Buttermaker said:
Plus training table food, tutors, priority access to classes, free gear. Substantial benefits. Does all that cover each player’s worth to the school? Not in some instances. Yes and then some for others.
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Again, how is this dramatically different than it’s always been since like the 80s or whatever?

One big difference is that schools are pulling in zillions in tv deals. The increase in athlete scholarship and non financial benefits since the 80s is not proportional to the increase in revenue schools are pulling in from these sports.

I’m not necessarily advocating that players need to be paid, just that it’s hypocritical to ignore the above.

Scooter thank you for clarifying that Clemson does not in fact have a water slide.
 
06deacon said:
Again, how is this dramatically different than it’s always been since like the 80s or whatever?

One big difference is that schools are pulling in zillions in tv deals. The increase in athlete scholarship and non financial benefits since the 80s is not proportional to the increase in revenue schools are pulling in from these sports.

I’m not necessarily advocating that players need to be paid, just that it’s hypocritical to ignore the above.

Scooter thank you for clarifying that Clemson does not in fact have a water slide.
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True, those benefits have been available to athletes for some time, while tv revenues have skyrocketed. However, the cost to attend these schools has skyrocketed, too, increasing the value of the 100% funded scholarship substantially.
 
I think that was covered a page or two back.
 
Multiple credible reporters including Brett McMurphey and Pat Forde say they expect the Power 5 conferences to cancel the season for the fall. The MAC already announced they were suspending fall sports earlier today. Major concerns are long term health risks and liability.
 
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AccFreak said:
Multiple credible reporters including Brett McMurphey and Pat Forde say they expect the Power 5 conferences to cancel the season for the fall. The MAC already announced they were suspending fall sports earlier today. Major concerns are long term health risks and liability.
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Disappointing; but I have no idea what is best.
 
Never had a problem with spring football. Makes the most sense honestly. Fans should be in the stands by that point. And if there’s not a vaccine by that point, we know we’re going to need to learn to live with it. At this point we still have something to be optimistic about in terms of stopping this virus dead in its tracks.

I would really look forward to baseball football and basketball going all at the same time. That would be exciting as shit.
 
SDDeac said:
Never had a problem with spring football. Makes the most sense honestly. Fans should be in the stands by that point. And if there’s not a vaccine by that point, we know we’re going to need to learn to live with it. At this point we still have something to be optimistic about in terms of stopping this virus dead in its tracks.

I would really look forward to baseball football and basketball going all at the same time. That would be exciting as shit.
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With baseball, football and basketball going on at the same time it would definitely be exciting. However, the economy would likely suffer. It’d be hard enough to find enough time to watch all those sports. Very little time left for other things....like work.
 
SDDeac said:
Never had a problem with spring football. Makes the most sense honestly. Fans should be in the stands by that point. And if there’s not a vaccine by that point, we know we’re going to need to learn to live with it. At this point we still have something to be optimistic about in terms of stopping this virus dead in its tracks.

I would really look forward to baseball football and basketball going all at the same time. That would be exciting as shit.
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There won’t be fans in the stands next spring.
 
Deacon923 said:
If this is true, why is there so much resistance to the idea of paying them? If your theorem is correct, then in an unrestricted market, all the money will go to the top prospects, and the rest of the athletes will pay full tuition and beg for the chance to walk on the team and bask in their greatness.

The top prospects have the most labor value, but a top QB is useless without an offensive line, backs, and receivers. And all the starters need backups and practice squad guys to practice against.

I think the corruption angle is interesting. We all know that college athletics is full of "corruption" and has been forever. This is unsurprising, as the NCAA rules prohibiting athletes from receiving fair value for their services automatically creates a black market. The way to reduce "corruption" is to bring the compensation issues out in the daylight. If Don Flow wants to pay WFU's starting QB to be the face of his Lexus dealership and pay the O Line to stand in the background, so be it - that's better than boosters slipping cash under the table or the slimy world of basketball sneaker agents and runners we have now.
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This is why I believe NIL revenue for team sports and some portion even from individual sports should be pooled and shared. Sam and Sage get no TDs without the team.
 
Seems crazy to let everyone get on campus for fall camp, revamp schedule and then cancel. Little has changed in the last month or so, so why wait so long to postpone?
 
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