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Thread: Political Chat Thread - All Topics & Rants Welcome

  1. #221
    Very progressive racial justice plan you have there.


  2. #222
    did you ever end up doing any work with OZs, MHB?

    I think we traded posts or PMs about them when they were brand new

  3. #223
    I also am curious why people make the proclamation that this is the greatest country and if you don't like it you can leave. Like this country has a lot of problems, most countries do, but this weird American exceptionalism is bullshit. It also seems to run through the people that would do best in some other country. Like super rich people, probably best off in this country, upper middle class people pretty much a wash here or elsewhere, then for the rural flag waving, America fuck yeah, USA USA USA crowd their lives would be so much better in another country.

  4. #224
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    It needs to be a country where everybody speaks English though.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by TownieDeac View Post
    Let's clarify this list (based on our best guesses).

    Things that are popular:

    low or no premiums and deductibles
    high quality care
    zero cost at point of service
    no medical bankruptcies
    removing the link between employment and access to care

    Things that aren't popular:

    working with an insurance company on a medical charge
    being forced to change doctors or hospitals
    Right, but it's not like M4A is the only path to some of those right? I mean of course high quality care is popular, but you don't need M4A for that. Same with decoupling employment and insurance. And yes, making things cheap/free is always popular. But again depending on framing: "Do you support eliminating deductibles and premiums by raising taxes on the middle class?" My answer to this is a resounding yes, but I think it would not be super popular. And you can come up with things that aren't popular about single payer too.

    I guess it just feels like leftists (to use your framing from earlier) take as a given that M4A is the most "left" health care policy, and therefore it must be the best. And I just don't get that level of certainty. It takes some stones to say we are going to ignore the way that many wealthy countries are managing successful health care systems, we got this.

    For me, it's not at all clear the M4A would be a better solution than something that would get portrayed in some circles as incremental change, but would in reality be a big fucking deal that could make a huge difference in many lives. I also think that M4A would be much harder to pass, much harder to implement, and much riskier if we fuck it up. So while I'm happy to concede that it could really be the best policy, I totally understand why a national party or a presidential candidate wouldn't want to endorse it right now.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by tiltdeac View Post
    Right, but it's not like M4A is the only path to some of those right? I mean of course high quality care is popular, but you don't need M4A for that. Same with decoupling employment and insurance. And yes, making things cheap/free is always popular. But again depending on framing: "Do you support eliminating deductibles and premiums by raising taxes on the middle class?" My answer to this is a resounding yes, but I think it would not be super popular. And you can come up with things that aren't popular about single payer too.

    I guess it just feels like leftists (to use your framing from earlier) take as a given that M4A is the most "left" health care policy, and therefore it must be the best. And I just don't get that level of certainty. It takes some stones to say we are going to ignore the way that many wealthy countries are managing successful health care systems, we got this.

    For me, it's not at all clear the M4A would be a better solution than something that would get portrayed in some circles as incremental change, but would in reality be a big fucking deal that could make a huge difference in many lives. I also think that M4A would be much harder to pass, much harder to implement, and much riskier if we fuck it up. So while I'm happy to concede that it could really be the best policy, I totally understand why a national party or a presidential candidate wouldn't want to endorse it right now.
    Separate conversations I think. I'm trying to just agree broadly about what's popular and what isn't, not about the means for keeping around what's popular and doing away with what isn't.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by JuiceCrewAllStar View Post
    did you ever end up doing any work with OZs, MHB?

    I think we traded posts or PMs about them when they were brand new
    Not really. We helped advise tribes to make sure they were working with their governors office on the approved OZ list. I was on a couple webinars before the regs were released when everyone was trying to figure it out.

    I left that job last year.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by myDeaconmyhand View Post
    This is where I was leading you. Why would you be more concerned with getting rid of malcontents than addressing their concerns?
    I mean do you want the alt-right influencing elections? I doubt it, but those yahoos also have every right that you and I do and I think those are sacred rights that should be protected. Itís not my job to address their concerns. I donít have any influence on anything outside of my immediate circle. If malcontents hate America, a country that I love and recognize has afforded me every opportunity that Iíve worked to capitalize upon (and failed fucking miserably at many others), then, again, Iím happy to help facilitate that if itís mutual. If they donít want to leave, then Iím not going to stop you from exercising your American freedoms whether I agree with them or not.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Gossett Jr View Post
    I also am curious why people make the proclamation that this is the greatest country and if you don't like it you can leave. Like this country has a lot of problems, most countries do, but this weird American exceptionalism is bullshit. It also seems to run through the people that would do best in some other country. Like super rich people, probably best off in this country, upper middle class people pretty much a wash here or elsewhere, then for the rural flag waving, America fuck yeah, USA USA USA crowd their lives would be so much better in another country.
    I think our fundamental flaw as a nation is this BS notion that we our exceptional. Its prevents us from looking in the mirror, assessing the real problems we have, and correcting them.

    Why change when we are the best?

  10. #230
    I mean it is absolutely insane that an 18 year old HS dropout with mental issues can walk into a Walmart and buy a weapon that can kill dozens of people in seconds.

    BUT WE ARE AMERICA AND WE ARE GREAT, so why change anything? Especially our 2nd amendment.

  11. #231
    But @tilt I do want to know how this public option really makes care affordable in a meaningful way, at point of service and in the final accounting, for our most vulnerable and not covered people, now at this most crucial time with 5+ million losing their insurance this quarter, and something like 1/3 of renters nationwide coming up against another month of not being able to pay their rents.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by BillBrasky View Post
    I think our fundamental flaw as a nation is this BS notion that we our exceptional. Its prevents us from looking in the mirror, assessing the real problems we have, and correcting them.

    Why change when we are the best?
    I think we are the best. But, I agree that we can be better. I donít see those as mutually exclusive.

  13. #233
    Tens of thousands of people die every year because of gun violence that no decent country would ever allow. We would rather put fucking body armor on our school children than change.

  14. #234
    Sounds like DG3 needs to read the 1619 project.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by BillBrasky View Post
    Tens of thousands of people die every year because of gun violence that no decent country would ever allow. We would rather put fucking body armor on our school children than change.
    Youíre not going to hear an argument from me on stricter gun control laws. I think there should be a far more rigorous process for obtaining a weapon. Iíve seen a bunch of people shoot guns that had no business operating any firearm.

  16. #236

    Political Chat Thread - All Topics & Rants Welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Sounds like DG3 needs to read the 1619 project.
    I have. I also finished White Fragility last night. Donít have time to discuss at the moment, but would be happy to later this evening if I get a chance at a decent hour.
    Last edited by DG3; 07-28-2020 at 03:12 PM.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by DG3 View Post
    Do I want those folks around me and influencing elections? Fuck no, but they also have to same rights that I do as an American citizen. They should never be compelled to leave by any stretch, but if I can help facilitate that in a mutual manner, Iím game.

    This is akin to my take on abortion. Iím pro choice. SHOCKER! Personally, Iím absolutely against abortion, but, I am in control of my own decisions and, generally, outcomes. I donít need my morality to be governed to the masses.
    You do realize that they still get to vote in national elections as American citizens even though they live abroad? Youíd be spending $10000s to keep them from voting for city council and school board and mayor in cities where you donít even live.
    Birds are real.

  18. #238
    I think a huge problem that Townie is getting at for what is popular and not popular is how things are framed and what questions actually are asked. Political action falls under a complicated process and this is then coupled with a super complicated medical process and insurance system that we have set up currently. Most people have no to basic knowledge of how the current system even works. Like people don't even think about something like their employer putting in like 6,000 a year for their insurance which could be their money, and an increase in taxes would be a wash or certainly come out a head if that money went to you instead. Everything needs to be simplified down to the simplest sentence, do you want free high quality health care?

    It reminds me of public health surveys conducted in African countries. You throw billions of dollars at problems like we will run this vaccine campaign, we will offer these drugs, we will do all this work, then you go about and do a comprehensive country wide survey and you ask something like do you know what HIV is, do you know what malaria is, do you know bad things are found in water, do you know that you can become sick from mosquitoes etc... and you get a yes response rate of like 30%.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
    You do realize that they still get to vote in national elections as American citizens even though they live abroad? Youíd be spending $10000s to keep them from voting for city council and school board and mayor in cities where you donít even live.
    Thatís why one of the clear stipulations was renunciation of American citizenship...

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by tiltdeac View Post
    Right, but it's not like M4A is the only path to some of those right? I mean of course high quality care is popular, but you don't need M4A for that. Same with decoupling employment and insurance. And yes, making things cheap/free is always popular. But again depending on framing: "Do you support eliminating deductibles and premiums by raising taxes on the middle class?" My answer to this is a resounding yes, but I think it would not be super popular. And you can come up with things that aren't popular about single payer too.

    I guess it just feels like leftists (to use your framing from earlier) take as a given that M4A is the most "left" health care policy, and therefore it must be the best. And I just don't get that level of certainty. It takes some stones to say we are going to ignore the way that many wealthy countries are managing successful health care systems, we got this.

    For me, it's not at all clear the M4A would be a better solution than something that would get portrayed in some circles as incremental change, but would in reality be a big fucking deal that could make a huge difference in many lives. I also think that M4A would be much harder to pass, much harder to implement, and much riskier if we fuck it up. So while I'm happy to concede that it could really be the best policy, I totally understand why a national party or a presidential candidate wouldn't want to endorse it right now.
    I have aluded to many of these things in the past, but what he said.

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