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Thread: Political Chat Thread - All Topics & Rants Welcome

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by TownieDeac View Post
    But @tilt I do want to know how this public option really makes care affordable in a meaningful way, at point of service and in the final accounting, for our most vulnerable and not covered people, now at this most crucial time with 5+ million losing their insurance this quarter, and something like 1/3 of renters nationwide coming up against another month of not being able to pay their rents.
    Biden's plan includes automatic enrollment of low income people from states that didn't expand medicaid. This is would give ~5 million uninsured people free health care, immediately (likely much more than 5 million given the job losses that you mentioned)

  2. #242
    Where is another plan that would decouple employment and insurance? Is there one? Itís frustrating because it seems yíall continually wield some hypothetical pragmatic plan to get the same outcomes that we canít argue against in the abstract.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by DG3 View Post
    I think we are the best. But, I agree that we can be better. I donÔŅĹt see those as mutually exclusive.
    I don't mean to say this antagonistically, but I view people with your mindset as one of the greatest barriers towards this country getting "better". There's a vicious cycle of successful Americans being unwilling or scared to make the drastic changes this country needs.

    It's not my lack of wealth, or my material conditions that make me want to leave the country. It's the knowing that American culture is insurmountable. Grievances with economic inequality are dismissed as losers bemoaning their own ineptitude. For all the confidence you have towards hard work in America being rewarded, naive IMO, you have no answer when I ask you directly what should be done about people in necessary careers who don't even receive living wages. That's not exceptional. Capitalism has losers and winners, and our very society rests on those "losers" doing their jobs, day in day out, while you collect surplus profit from property you own and dont even manage. I recognize that you're just participating in normal entrepreneurship, but the combination of that mindset and the place you've made for yourself in society, is toxic. It's not villainous to be economically successful, but it is villainous to be a Randian objectivist & apathetic about the inherent cruelty of our society.
    Last edited by myDeaconmyhand; 07-28-2020 at 03:48 PM.
    Draxx them sklounst

  4. #244
    It is villainous to be a landlord.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by DG3 View Post
    I did that at 5:30 this morning. I assume you were sleeping?

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Where is another plan that would decouple employment and insurance? Is there one? Itís frustrating because it seems yíall continually wield some hypothetical pragmatic plan to get the same outcomes that we canít argue against in the abstract.
    It depends what you mean. I don't know of other plans that actively prohibit employee sponsored insurance, but public options like Biden's allow people to choose whether they want to stay on an employer plan or enroll in the public option.

  7. #247
    Is there another plan that makes care free at point of service?

  8. #248
    As an addendum, its unfair of me to single out DG3 - no one else answered my question either, and its very likely that there are other landlords on the tunnels and even participating in this thread. I don't appreciate that vocation, but it's normal under capitalism.
    Draxx them sklounst

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Is there another plan that makes care free at point of service?
    For everyone, no, just M4A. All the other major proposals that I'm aware of offer care that is free at the point of service for people up to a certain income level, and then caps premiums as a graduated percentage of income above that level.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by myDeaconmyhand View Post
    As an addendum, its unfair of me to single out DG3 - no one else answered my question either, and its very likely that there are other landlords on the tunnels and even participating in this thread. I don't appreciate that vocation, but it's normal under capitalism.
    I inherited four houses that have six apartment units and an office building/house that housed my father's old real estate practice with my brother and sister from my parents. Our tax practice has been one of the primary tenets of that office building for the past nineteen years. I actively manage the properties with my sister

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by myDeaconmyhand View Post
    I don't mean to say this antagonistically, but I view people with your mindset as one of the greatest barriers towards this country getting "better". There's a vicious cycle of successful Americans being unwilling or scared to make the drastic changes this country needs.

    It's not my lack of wealth, or my material conditions that make me want to leave the country. It's the knowing that American culture is insurmountable. Grievances with economic inequality are dismissed as losers bemoaning their own ineptitude. For all the confidence you have towards hard work in America being rewarded, naive IMO, you have no answer when I ask you directly what should be done about people in necessary careers who don't even receive living wages. That's not exceptional. Capitalism has losers and winners, and our very society rests on those "losers" doing their jobs, day in day out, while you collect surplus profit from property you own and dont even manage. I recognize that you're just participating in normal entrepreneurship, but the combination of that mindset and the place you've made for yourself in society, is toxic. It's not villainous to be economically successful, but it is villainous to be a Randian objectivist & apathetic about the inherent cruelty of our society.
    Hereís the thing, I completely understand your line of thought. I appreciate it. But the very people on this board are on the .01% of the most intelligent and wealthy people in the history of humankind. Many of us, myself included, didnít start with generational wealth. Also, I definitely had some advantages. Wealth isnít inherently evil. Iím working my ass off so that my children will one day have that wealth. Isnít that what we all want? My net gain in wealth didnít equal a net loss to someone else. I feel that line of thinking is incredibly dangerous.

  12. #252
    there is definitely a zero-sum component to wealth

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by BillBrasky View Post

    My final piece of advice is to stop acting like a shithead, and then people will stop thinking you are one.
    I think all of us posting on the tunnels should get this as an automatic weekly pop up when we log in.
    Letís get this done!

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by tiltdeac View Post
    Biden's plan includes automatic enrollment of low income people from states that didn't expand medicaid. This is would give ~5 million uninsured people free health care, immediately (likely much more than 5 million given the job losses that you mentioned)
    Iím concerned about the margins here though and how we define who can afford care. There are covered people now who ration prescriptions or doctor visits even with insurance. Or people who will choose not to receive care (or test themselves for Covid) for lack of transparency of cost. Or people who wouldnít automatically be enrolled but still practically speaking afford insurance.

    Plus no matter how many reforms you tack on, youíll always have red states trying to claw back these benefits.

  15. #255
    Canít afford*

    Damn edit function

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by TownieDeac View Post
    Iím concerned about the margins here though and how we define who can afford care. There are covered people now who ration prescriptions or doctor visits even with insurance. Or people who will choose not to receive care (or test themselves for Covid) for lack of transparency of cost. Or people who wouldnít automatically be enrolled but still practically speaking afford insurance.

    Plus no matter how many reforms you tack on, youíll always have red states trying to claw back these benefits.
    Yeah that's all fair. I think the Biden plan is modeled after Healthy America, so I'm guessing something similar to this:

     People with incomes below the tax-filing threshold and others with incomes below 138 percent
    of FPL would not be charged premiums if they enroll in a plan with premiums no higher than the
    benchmark plan.
     People with incomes between 138 and 150 percent of FPL would pay premiums ranging from 0
    to 2 percent of income for the benchmark plan.

     People with incomes between 150 and 200 percent of FPL would pay premiums ranging from 2
    to 4 percent of income for the benchmark plan.

     People with incomes between 200 and 250 percent of FPL would pay premiums ranging from 4
    to 6 percent of income for the benchmark plan.

     People with incomes between 250 and 300 percent of FPL would pay premiums ranging from 6
    to 7 percent of income for the benchmark plan.

     People with incomes between 300 and 400 percent of FPL would pay premiums ranging from 7
    to 8.5 percent of income for the benchmark plan.

     People with higher incomes would pay premiums of no more than 8.5 percent of income for the
    benchmark plan.
    I assume they chose those numbers to hit some specific budget target, but I'd prefer to see them start higher up the income ladder.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by BillBrasky View Post
    I think our fundamental flaw as a nation is this BS notion that we our exceptional. Its prevents us from looking in the mirror, assessing the real problems we have, and correcting them.

    Why change when we are the best?
    ďWe our exceptional!Ē Sums up America.
    Letís get this done!

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by JuiceCrewAllStar View Post
    there is definitely a zero-sum component to wealth
    The conservative argument against zero sum economics flips really quick when the concepts of socialism and wealth tax come up. Suddenly wealth is a scarce commodity. As it turns out, not everyone in society can be an entrepreneur chasing a fortune.
    Draxx them sklounst

  19. #259
    Isnt 400 percent of the poverty line only like 50,000 dollars? 4,000 dollars in premiums?

  20. #260
    Employer provided health insurance and ACA plans are both unaffordable for alot of people.Chipping at the edges with subsidy and reform is unacceptable.
    Draxx them sklounst

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