Political Chat Thread - All Topics & Rants Welcome

[myDeaconmyhand]

...Many of us, myself included, didn’t start with generational wealth. Also, I definitely had some advantages. Wealth isn’t inherently evil. I’m working my ass off so that my children will one day have that wealth. My net gain in wealth didn’t equal a net loss to someone else...

I'd probably dispute what you consider "generational wealth" in this context. RE: "net loss to someone else". Wealth is always created by labor. You might consider that a fair trade, but your subjective view of fair trade accepts the existence of poverty.

The surplus value of goods goes to the person or people that incur 100% of the risk. If you’re doing non-skilled labor for a company and that company goes under, you’re out of a job. The owner is out of a job and is liable for all the debt.

Surely your argument will be, “BUT WITHOUT THE LABOR YOU DON’T HAVE THE PRODUCT!” Unskilled labor in infinitely replaceable. If you don’t want your skill to be replaceable, do what everyone on this board has done and learn one that isn’t as easily replaced.

Further, don’t come at me with the barrier to entry bullshit. If you have a smartphone and an instagram account, you can become an entrepreneur today (not that I suggest that, but it’s very possible.) You can monetize literally almost anything. I didn’t know this a decade ago either, but instead of allowing myself to drudge through life paycheck to paycheck, I read books and involved myself in organizations that let me meet and learn from people.

Now, where I differ potentially from the conservative though is that I don’t think people who aren’t successful are lazy. Learning how to start a business or how to learn a valuable skill isn’t something that happens to be gift wrapped for you on your pillow one night. It’s something that requires education. I would love to see and participate in programs to mentor teens and young adults on business ownership.

So many shitty, privileged points to address here. 1. Access to capital is very often a privilege. 2. "Unskilled labor" is an elitist misnomer. The vast majority of professional careers could be ably filled by high school grads with reasonable training - in large part, a college education just serves as a social credit to access professional opportunity. 3. Our society necessitates that most people serve a role other than entrepreneurship. The idea that people need to create wealth inorder to deserve material comfort is an arbitrary function of capitalism, not a natural development.

Ok then who is responsible for the debt? Yes, the owner, in most cases, won’t have his/her personal property seized as collateral, but who paid for the operating costs of business, the infrastructure, the equipment, the property? Hint: it wasn’t the guy working on the production line.

If you incur the risk and the costs, you reap the benefits. The best part about it is that the same woman or man on the production line can leave one day, start an LLC, and open their own shop. If you don’t like the trajectory of your career, you can make your own. Look at Instagram models, they make money being hot.

There’s no lack of opportunity in the United States, just a lack of knowledge on how to take advantage of those opportunities. These resources exist, we just need to make them more accessible.

What is your definition of "opportunity"? You keep circling back to this invented economic hierarchy where anyone with a grievance should simply seek more "opportunity", when that completely misses the point of addressing inequality. If "the world needs ditch diggers too" then act like it, and support the material conditions of ditch diggers. It's wildly illogical for any citizen to neglect the conditions of the people who make up the foundation of our society, and you defending that neglect by calling those human beings "replaceable" is more a credit to your lack of empathy, than it is to any understanding of economics. It's plainly obvious that our society functions much better when people aren't sick and starving.

[MHBDemon]

Today’s edition of “all labor is skilled labor:”

[centerdeac]

Not exactly the best time to vote with your feet and quit. Starting a business in the middle of a pandemic is quite hard.

[WFFaithful]

The surplus value of goods goes to the person or people that incur 100% of the risk. If you’re doing non-skilled labor for a company and that company goes under, you’re out of a job. The owner is out of a job and is liable for all the debt.

Surely your argument will be, “BUT WITHOUT THE LABOR YOU DON’T HAVE THE PRODUCT!” Unskilled labor in infinitely replaceable. If you don’t want your skill to be replaceable, do what everyone on this board has done and learn one that isn’t as easily replaced.

Further, don’t come at me with the barrier to entry bullshit. If you have a smartphone and an instagram account, you can become an entrepreneur today (not that I suggest that, but it’s very possible.) You can monetize literally almost anything. I didn’t know this a decade ago either, but instead of allowing myself to drudge through life paycheck to paycheck, I read books and involved myself in organizations that let me meet and learn from people.

Now, where I differ potentially from the conservative though is that I don’t think people who aren’t successful are lazy. Learning how to start a business or how to learn a valuable skill isn’t something that happens to be gift wrapped for you on your pillow one night. It’s something that requires education. I would love to see and participate in programs to mentor teens and young adults on business ownership.

AMWAY?

[Louis Gossett Jr]

Damn Fernando makes like 60,000 a year picking cilantro!!!

[PhDeac]

Today’s edition of “all labor is skilled labor:”

Wealth is always created by labor. Yet Fernando only gets a tiny fraction of the wealth created by his labor. The person who owns the land gets more of it. And landownership in this country has an ugly history.

Damn Fernando makes like 60,000 a year picking cilantro!!!

Someone who is elite at their job should make more than $60,000 a year.

[centerdeac]

So a non educated short order fry cook Who is really great but only contributes an extra 5000 over minimum quality for her work deserves to make what my wife with a masters degree who is head of her department and has 15 years of service? No way. And unlike you she teaches a subject that can get students employed.

[myDeaconmyhand]

So a non educated short order fry cook Who is really great but only contributes an extra 5000 over minimum quality for her work deserves to make what my wife with a masters degree who is head of her department and has 15 years of service? No way. And unlike you she teaches a subject that can get students employed.

bud, a persons salary isn't a game show prize. In what world is your wife competing with a fry cook for income? The two realms have basically nothing in common with each other, you're just choosing which one you believe is most valuable, based on a clear bias.

[myDeaconmyhand]

I guess in this hypothetical if your wife wants to quit her job and apply to be a fry cook, that's perfectly fine. I bet she'd rather keep doing what she's doing, though.

[centerdeac]

She may quit if making the same money was there asa fry cook. She could have saved years of no income paying tuition and the extra work of teaching. It's not deciding now, it is putting in the work and sacrifice beforehand to make 60k And still not be appreciated more than a bean picker or fry cook.

[myDeaconmyhand]

She may quit if making the same money was there asa fry cook. She could have saved years of no income paying tuition and the extra work of teaching. It's not deciding now, it is putting in the work and sacrifice beforehand to make 50k.

I'm not going to hypothesize on the market value of a professor with 15years experience, but I will say that its very weird that you typed out that statement and thought "My wife is completely underpaid, so this other job should also be underpaid". What if, and hear me out here, your wife and the fry cook both deserved *more* money?

[centerdeac]

There is only so much money. My wife gets a fair wage. Median income is much lower.

[centerdeac]

The fry cook should get earned income tax credit to supplement her income, as well as child care credits. Government is the social safety net and should reward full time workers with lower wages.

[myDeaconmyhand]

There is only so much money. My wife gets a fair wage. Median income is much lower.

lol, ok. I don't have anything to add to that.

[PhDeac]

So a non educated short order fry cook Who is really great but only contributes an extra 5000 over minimum quality for her work deserves to make what my wife with a masters degree who is head of her department and has 15 years of service? No way. And unlike you she teaches a subject that can get students employed.

I doubt an elite cook would be working as a short-order fry cook. If so, there are ways she could move up the ladder as a cook to earn more money for her skills.

[centerdeac]

No, you used the bean picker example. Short order cooks tend not to have the formal education of a chef. They are limited. How do yo move from fry cook at a diner to sous chef at a high end restaurant?

[PhDeac]

Cilantro picker.

You’re confusing a cook with a chef. But sure, a cook could get the training needed to become a chef.

What’s the comparable route for the Lebron James of cilantro picking? I don’t understand your point. You basically explained by point.

[centerdeac]

You are worth minimum wage plus what you produce Skills pay bills. I like the cilantro picker to the extent I love emigrants to North Dakota who work in fracking. Not every industry pays to. 50 or 60k. Alaska fishing and West Virginia coal mining asks risks and effort to do so. Being the best amusement park ride operator does not.

[centerdeac]

As for the Lebron of picking, he would be fired. Hong Kong matters.

[DG3]

I'd probably dispute what you consider "generational wealth" in this context. RE: "net loss to someone else". Wealth is always created by labor. You might consider that a fair trade, but your subjective view of fair trade accepts the existence of poverty.



So many shitty, privileged points to address here. 1. Access to capital is very often a privilege. 2. "Unskilled labor" is an elitist misnomer. The vast majority of professional careers could be ably filled by high school grads with reasonable training - in large part, a college education just serves as a social credit to access professional opportunity. 3. Our society necessitates that most people serve a role other than entrepreneurship. The idea that people need to create wealth inorder to deserve material comfort is an arbitrary function of capitalism, not a natural development.



What is your definition of "opportunity"? You keep circling back to this invented economic hierarchy where anyone with a grievance should simply seek more "opportunity", when that completely misses the point of addressing inequality. If "the world needs ditch diggers too" then act like it, and support the material conditions of ditch diggers. It's wildly illogical for any citizen to neglect the conditions of the people who make up the foundation of our society, and you defending that neglect by calling those human beings "replaceable" is more a credit to your lack of empathy, than it is to any understanding of economics. It's plainly obvious that our society functions much better when people aren't sick and starving.

So many feelings, so little fact. Wrapping bullshit in pretty packaging is still bullshit.

I’m sorry if your upbringing/life isn’t/wasn’t great. I really am. But where you are at 30+ years old is 100% on you and decisions you’ve made in life. It’s not the rich guy in Buena Vista bringing you down. If things are great for you, I’m happy! Again, those would be consequences of your decisions. And, as I recall, you’re married with a kid, so sounds like the latter. (I really meant this as a general “you” just was easy to use you for the sake of this point. Don’t mean to offend.)

There is a reason that every successful(subjective term, for sure) person I’ve ever met doesn’t subscribe to most of your points. They stopped being victims and took control of their lives. You’re really gonna love this... a bunch of them aren’t white or men.

This shit isn’t hard, boys. If I can do it, a redneck from a shithole, impoverished town in Eastern NC, I know most of you fuckin’ guys can. And likely a hell of a lot better than me. Frankly, nothing would make me happier than to see all of you guys kick ass in life. Hell, I’d love to connect with some of you about it. Maybe I’m old school, but I still think we can all learn a lot from each other.

I know I’m a douche. It’s who I am. But I really do love you guys, even that crusty old curmudgeon Milhouse. There’s no group of assholes I’d rather wage internet war with. I guess staring at 100+ spreadsheets since 8 PM has caused delirium to set in so you get docile DG3 tonight. Until tomorrow, gents.