• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

A college degree is a lousy investment

Free college for the sake of free college is bad, free college through accomplishing some baseline competence like a 3.5 or better in high school is good.
 
It blows my mind how many people can't understand that people need more and more education to be competent citizens as society gets more and more advanced.

There's simply more to learn than there used to be.

That's not to mean everyone needs to go to college. The bar is just higher.
 
That's why the idea that the magically middle class factory job is coming back is just a myth. The days of your only skill being existing as a human are over through globalization and automation.
 
PhDeac said:
It blows my mind how many people can't understand that people need more and more education to be competent citizens as society gets more and more advanced.

There's simply more to learn than there used to be.

That's not to mean everyone needs to go to college. The bar is just higher.
Click to expand...

More or different? Some things taught in school are pretty useless in today's world and could be scrapped in favor of more practical subjects. I'm pretty sure we could fit whatever is needed to be competent citizens in those 13 years. Adding 4 more years so that Larry Longballs can "study" 18th century art doesn't address the advancement of society.
 
What's considered education is somewhat of a joke a lot of times anyways. Like you graduate from some "colleges" but what did you really learn? A lot of schools are so lacking most people on these boards could have passed the classes and graduated from those schools at middle school age.
 
Strickland33 said:
Why should you have gone to college?
Click to expand...

1) Because I was smart
2) because I was motivated to apply myself
3) because i had ideas about how I wanted to live in and contribute to society and college was necessary for those goals
4) because I earned scholarships on my own merit and through my hard work to help pay for it
5) because my parents could pay for the rest

To say not everyone should go to college is not necessarily an insult to those people. I knew people in HS who could not have cared less about school and only wanted to be farmers - or stay-at-home moms - or mechanics. There were other people in HS who were just idiots and screw-ups - they also had no business going to college.
 
scooter84 said:
1) Because I was smart
2) because I was motivated to apply myself
3) because i had ideas about how I wanted to live in and contribute to society and college was necessary for those goals
4) because I earned scholarships on my own merit and through my hard work to help pay for it
5) because my parents could pay for the rest

To say not everyone should go to college is not necessarily an insult to those people. I knew people in HS who could not have cared less about school and only wanted to be farmers - or stay-at-home moms - or mechanics. There were other people in HS who were just idiots and screw-ups - they also had no business going to college.
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding to my question seriously, scooter.

I think that 1-3 apply to a lot of kids going to college and that a lot of students are willing to do a combination of 4-5 to the extent that they are able. I may be spoiled, but I have a lot of students who apply for every ounce of scholarship cash in sight and work multiple part and full-time jobs off campus. College is absurdly expensive, though, so if you don't have 5 (and even if you do), you'll probably have to rack up some loans along the way.

I think you're setting up a straw man argument, though. Nobody is saying that everybody should go to college, but rather that if you want to go to college, then you have an opportunity to do so. Plenty of students in NYC and NYS will continue to not want to go to college and not go to college. Those that do and might've been deterred by the cost will have the opportunity, conditions permitting, to do so. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Apparently not talented and/or hardworking enough.
One of our systemic problems is an overabundance of people with virtually worthless college degrees who can't find jobs. I fail to see how creating even more college degrees with lower values helps anyone. The poor kid smart enough to go to Princeton is already getting a free ride somewhere if he wants to take it. We're talking about the kids who over the prior 13 years have already established that they shouldn't get the free or significantly-paid-for ride to SUNY-Buffalo State. Einstein, they are not. This just pushes them off to the next level for no real reason.
Click to expand...

Would be a better argument if there weren't so many dumbasses at good schools because they could afford to pay full tuition.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
Would be a better argument if there weren't so many dumbasses at good schools because they could afford to pay full tuition.
Click to expand...

Those dumbasses and their full tuition are what is enabling that good school to stay a good school for the smart kids who aren't paying full tuition. Wealth redistribution at its finest, right?
 
Strickland33 said:
Thanks for responding to my question seriously, scooter.

I think that 1-3 apply to a lot of kids going to college and that a lot of students are willing to do a combination of 4-5 to the extent that they are able. I may be spoiled, but I have a lot of students who apply for every ounce of scholarship cash in sight and work multiple part and full-time jobs off campus. College is absurdly expensive, though, so if you don't have 5 (and even if you do), you'll probably have to rack up some loans along the way.

I think you're setting up a straw man argument, though. Nobody is saying that everybody should go to college, but rather that if you want to go to college, then you have an opportunity to do so. Plenty of students in NYC and NYS will continue to not want to go to college and not go to college. Those that do and might've been deterred by the cost will have the opportunity, conditions permitting, to do so. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Like I said, this is a complicated issue and I still believe the biggest problem is the hyper-inflation of the cost of college - which, I believe, has been exacerbated by the easy availability of loans and grants which has artificially increased demand. My thoughts with respect to the bolded is that there aren't many low income kids that fit into this bucket - there are so many other aid packages available for them already. The kids that need help are the middle class kids who won't qualify for this type of program anyway.
 
There seems to be a persistent myth among well-to-do white people that every poor or minority kid who wants to go to college can go for free.
 
PhDeac said:
There seems to be a persistent myth among well-to-do white people that every poor or minority kid who wants to go to college can go for free.
Click to expand...

Well, you state it too broadly - obviously it is limited to poor or minority kids that otherwise qualify for admission. But, in my experience, the myth is pretty close to reality - especially when the emphasis is on the poor. Maybe not for free, but certainly with a lot of help. And clearly the better the kids academic record the more help that is available.
 
scooter84 said:
Like I said, this is a complicated issue and I still believe the biggest problem is the hyper-inflation of the cost of college - which, I believe, has been exacerbated by the easy availability of loans and grants which has artificially increased demand. My thoughts with respect to the bolded is that there aren't many low income kids that fit into this bucket - there are so many other aid packages available for them already. The kids that need help are the middle class kids who won't qualify for this type of program anyway.
Click to expand...

PhDeac said:
There seems to be a persistent myth among well-to-do white people that every poor or minority kid who wants to go to college can go for free.
Click to expand...

scooter84 said:
Well, you state it too broadly - obviously it is limited to poor or minority kids that otherwise qualify for admission. But, in my experience, the myth is pretty close to reality - especially when the emphasis is on the poor. Maybe not for free, but certainly with a lot of help. And clearly the better the kids academic record the more help that is available.
Click to expand...

You're making a lot of generalizations here and I'll try to respond to them based on my experience teaching at a public university.

I teach at a university with a lot of lower middle class or working class students of color, many of whom are first generation students. First, you're overstating the presence of scholarships and grant-in-aid opportunities that are available to students at public universities; most of the aid here comes in the form of various types of loans and students still work multiple part-time jobs to get themselves through college. Your assumption is actually really wrong based on my understanding of funding in higher education and a dangerous myth to echo in these times.

What is your experience that you alluded to above?

Second, what is middle class in your definition? In the United States, folks from all over the income spectrum identify as middle class, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are middle class. There is a literal middle-ground between people with upper class (typically PMC jobs and above) and working class incomes Proponents of the NY plan have said explicitly that the program should most benefit middle class students:

We checked in with David W. Chen, a New York Times investigative reporter who has been covering the free-tuition plan, called the Excelsior Scholarship, to understand how it will work.

How free is free tuition?

It’s actually not. Excelsior would fill in the gaps of costs not covered by financial aid, Mr. Chen said. It would need to be added on top of other scholarships and grants to make college free.

For students who are not receiving any other financial aid — those who are making too much money to qualify for need-based support — Excelsior would help even more.

“It’s primarily aimed at middle-class families,” Mr. Chen said, “and the governor has been clear about that from the beginning.”

How much would a family pay after the scholarship?

The total cost — tuition, fees, and room and board — for four years at a State University of New York college is about $83,000 — roughly $21,000 per year or $10,000 per semester. This program would pay about $26,000. Families would still need to shoulder nearly $60,000 to send a student to college.

How does one qualify for the scholarship?

Families must earn an annual income of $100,000 or less during the first year of participation in the plan.

New and existing students may apply, and you don’t need to be a native of New York State (or even a current New York resident) to do so.

It’s unclear whether there will be a grade-point-average requirement, but applicants must continue to college from high school with no interruptions. If the scholarship recipient becomes a part-time student or graduates from high school late, the option is off the table.

But what if I had to take some time off school for personal reasons?

That’s where things get tricky.

“If the program were applying to those who are now in school, not that many students — or certainly a minority of students — would qualify for the scholarships because most of them are working part time or taking longer than four years to graduate,” Mr. Chen said.

With that rule in place, more than 90 percent of students at the state’s community colleges would not qualify for free tuition.

Are there any additional requirements for those who qualify?

Yes. Recipients should plan to live and work in New York after graduation, for as many years as they received help with the tuition. If that obligation is broken, they will need to repay that year, similar to repaying a student loan, though the plan includes some flexibility and exceptions, such as personal hardship or military service.
Click to expand...

Every state is different when it comes to class stratification, but $100,000 is a lot of money once you leave the city and its immediate suburbs. The SUNY system is relatively affordable, too, so tuition inflation is a problem, but not exactly in this context.

Scooter, I feel like you're not responding to the program in place in New York and instead responding to a broader philosophical issue of whether or not public universities should or could be free for students from families that make under $100,000/year (or whatever mark you wish to set).
 
ITT well to do private university grads don't want to pay taxes to help #publicschoolfilth.
 
Eh, I'm probably wrong, as usual, and I am definitely being guided by my general perceptions of the issue. I just hate calling things free when they are not - I know folks on here understand that it isn't really free but it seems like large portions of the population really think things provided by the government are free. And I hate trying to solve problems with more tax money. It is just so counter-intuitive to me to think giving the government more of your money is going to make things better. I literally can't understand people that think that way.
 
Because people accomplish more when they pool their resources together.

So I assume based on your posts that you believe there's no role for public higher education. You seem dead set against taxpayer funding for public institutions.
 
PhDeac said:
Because people accomplish more when they pool their resources together.

So I assume based on your posts that you believe there's no role for public higher education. You seem dead set against taxpayer funding for public institutions.
Click to expand...

Not when the government wastes most of those resources. And please stop trying to pigeon hole me and decide what I believe.
 
You're pigeon-holing yourself with this whole "Government bad!! ARGGGH!" nonsense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top