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A college degree is a lousy investment

How did college admissions get so competitive? I look at the admissions stats for schools and it's hard to believe- are there really that many kids with straight A's and 1500+ SATs out there? And it's not just the top top schools- NC State has an average SAT for admitted freshman of 1356 and average unweighted GPA of 3.85?!?!?!?
 
HoosierDeac said:
How did college admissions get so competitive? I look at the admissions stats for schools and it's hard to believe- are there really that many kids with straight A's and 1500+ SATs out there? And it's not just the top top schools- NC State has an average SAT for admitted freshman of 1356 and average unweighted GPA of 3.85?!?!?!?
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There's probably been significant grade inflation in certain High Schools over the past 30 years. I don't have anything but anecdotal data.

For the SAT? No idea. I have a feeling that more kids are exposed to a form of SAT prep now than before, but I'm not sure that's meaningful.
 
More people applying to more colleges than in the past as well.
 
HoosierDeac said:
I guess so- but at the end of the day people are shelling out ~$200k for a Clemson degree? Like that happens in real life? Would you be better off with a UNCW degree and $150k more in your pocket?
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The short answer is no - you can't justify paying out of state tuition versus an in-state school based purely on numbers - not when comparing a non-elite out of state school with an "acceptable" in-state alternative. But there are lots of other reasons kids may want to go to an out of state school.
I wouldn't say UNCW or App St are comparables to Clemson, but the point remains.
My kids went to Clemson from NC. One got lots of scholarship money, one did not. Did it make purely financial sense to send the one there that paid full boat - no. But she was wildly happy there, worked super hard and did great because she appreciated the sacrifice we were making to send her there, and is making great use of the networks she formed while in school there.
 
scooter84 said:
The short answer is no - you can't justify paying out of state tuition versus an in-state school based purely on numbers - not when comparing a non-elite out of state school with an "acceptable" in-state alternative. But there are lots of other reasons kids may want to go to an out of state school.
I wouldn't say UNCW or App St are comparables to Clemson, but the point remains.
My kids went to Clemson from NC. One got lots of scholarship money, one did not. Did it make purely financial sense to send the one there that paid full boat - no. But she was wildly happy there, worked super hard and did great because she appreciated the sacrifice we were making to send her there, and is making great use of the networks she formed while in school there.
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No, in my example, Clemson is the best school the kid got into. It happens to be out of state.
 
Grabs Turds Bare said:
There's probably been significant grade inflation in certain High Schools over the past 30 years. I don't have anything but anecdotal data.

For the SAT? No idea. I have a feeling that more kids are exposed to a form of SAT prep now than before, but I'm not sure that's meaningful.
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This for sure. In 2005 we did zero SAT prep other than take a practice SAT the year before. I'd imagine now you can take prep like youd find for the LSAT and GMAT. Totally changes the game.
 
Manifest Destiny said:
This for sure. In 2005 we did zero SAT prep other than take a practice SAT the year before. I'd imagine now you can take prep like youd find for the LSAT and GMAT. Totally changes the game.
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I regret to inform you this was available when we were in high school and spoiled rich kids took it. I tutored those little shits for Kaplan starting in like 06.
 
I did SAT prep in the 80s. This is nothing new.

Once you realize it's nothing beyond 10th grade math and that they've been feeding you vocabulary words for five years, you're golden.
 
02 HS grad - I took a like one day intro to SAT format course as a sophomore which in hindsight was too early to really help much but the best prep I thought was the PSAT which we all took as sophs and juniors. And for some reason I did better on the SAT as a senior than I ever did on the PSAT so who really knows.

I can definitely understand prep courses helping with the analogy section if you’re not naturally logic oriented but it seems like the reading comprehension and math sections you just have to know.
 
06deacon said:
02 HS grad - I took a like one day intro to SAT format course as a sophomore which in hindsight was too early to really help much but the best prep I thought was the PSAT which we all took as sophs and juniors. And for some reason I did better on the SAT as a senior than I ever did on the PSAT so who really knows.

I can definitely understand prep courses helping with the analogy section if you’re not naturally logic oriented but it seems like the reading comprehension and math sections you just have to know.
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For the LSAT, this section was my biggest improvement. Just being familiar with the format and what to expect was fucking huge.
 
As for grades, my kids now have a 10 pt scale in HS. It was a weird ~6 pt scale for me: 95+ A, 88+ B, 81+ C, 75+ D. They also have two levels of "above average" college prep type classes: honors (+1 GPA), and AP (+2 GPA) now. I just had AP for +1 GPA. So yeah, it is easier for kids to have a higher GPA now than in their parents' day.
 
awaken said:
As for grades, my kids now have a 10 pt scale in HS. It was a weird ~6 pt scale for me: 95+ A, 88+ B, 81+ C, 75+ D. They also have two levels of "above average" college prep type classes: honors (+1 GPA), and AP (+2 GPA) now. I just had AP for +1 GPA. So yeah, it is easier for kids to have a higher GPA now than in their parents' day.
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I fail to understand why honors or AP classes do/should alter GPA. Aren't the potential college credits enough?
 
BiffTannen said:
I did SAT prep in the 80s. This is nothing new.

Once you realize it's nothing beyond 10th grade math and that they've been feeding you vocabulary words for five years, you're golden.
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Sure, prep was available back then - it just wasn't very prevalent. Competition in admissions is a vicious cycle - as it gets more competitive, more kids do extra stuff to compete (more extracurriculars, more test prep, more AP courses, etc.), causing admissions to get even more competitive, etc...

My understanding is that the supply and demand curve should be shifting now. I think the peak year for number of kids wanting to go to college was supposed to be around 2010 or so - representing, I guess, the peak year for the children of the baby boomers? I went and looked at some numbers and it is easy to see why it became so competitive - and why colleges have ramped up facilities to compete for kids. the number of kids in colleges in the U.S. over time:
1970 - 8.5 M
1980 - 12 M
1990 - 14 M
2000 - 15+ M
2005 - 17.5M
2010 - 21 M
2015 - 20 M
2018 - 19.8 M

The projections I saw have the number staying pretty steady around 19-20 M through 2028 or so.
 
Grabs Turds Bare said:
I fail to understand why honors or AP classes do/should alter GPA. Aren't the potential college credits enough?
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because a GPA is a meaningless measurement otherwise. a 3.5 in easy classes is not the same as a 3.5 in AP.
 
Colleges are buying data about students to encourage some to apply that have no chance to gain admittance just to lower acceptance rate.

 
Who cares. If you and your parents are dumb enough to spend the time applying to schools you have no chance of getting into you're not prepared for college anyway.
 
BiffTannen said:
Who cares. If you and your parents are dumb enough to spend the time applying to schools you have no chance of getting into you're not prepared for college anyway.
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it's a dumb gross story about capitalism and application fees are obnoxious but i don't see how this 'perfectly fucks over poor people' in particular
 
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