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A college degree is a lousy investment

1. stop building new buildings - don't engage in the facilities arms race
2. stop improving stadiums
3. stop paying coaches huge amounts
4. profit

Is this really an issue? I would think this has very, very little effect on the cost of education, especially when you consider that costs are rising everywhere and not just at P5 schools. Besides, the donation money that comes into athletic departments is often independent from the education side of things and donated exclusively for the purpose of facilities upgrades, coaches, etc. (Note that non-athletic facility upgrades would not be included in my non-scientific assessment). That doesn't include the payouts from conference affiliations/TV contracts, bowl games, etc.
 
Yes on-campus residency requirements mean big money for the school but research also shows that students living on campus tend to perform better across the board. Especially important is that second year for retention and progress.

Three years does seem a little much, but I don't know any current students.
 
DeacMan, I'm not personally vested in tuition costs. My salary doesn't even really come from it because I bring in more than I get.

Again, you're a newcomer to an almost 10 year conversation and you can easily find my takes on this instead of making lazy ridiculous accusations based on my profession.

You regularly enter an argument you know little about and haven't participated in to berate people who actually know what they're talking about and have shown willingness to learn and maintain productive dialogue. What you're doing is like if I went on the EPL thread and started spouting off about why I think Everton is overrated and then didn't bother to pay attention to ongoing discussions.
 
Is this really an issue? I would think this has very, very little effect on the cost of education, especially when you consider that costs are rising everywhere and not just at P5 schools. Besides, the donation money that comes into athletic departments is often independent from the education side of things and donated exclusively for the purpose of facilities upgrades, coaches, etc. (Note that non-athletic facility upgrades would not be included in my non-scientific assessment). That doesn't include the payouts from conference affiliations/TV contracts, bowl games, etc.

I think part of the issue is the ongoing operating costs of new infrastructure. People tend to focus on what it costs to build the building and less on the ongoing upkeep. Those costs add up when you add on a library annex, a new dorm, a new dining hall, a new science building apart from the building that used to house the department that was shared with other departments, etc. I hear you on athletic departments having their own budgets (which could be its own discussion). But the "arms" race at colleges goes well beyond facilities dedicated to the athletic department.

And admittedly this is not an easy thing for college and universities. To attract students and solid faculty they no doubt feel like they need facilities on par with other schools.

I also question the value of some departments within universities. I get this is sort of a facts and circumstances view school by school. Is it useful to, say, take a class or two in political science to graduate? To me, personally, sure. Does that mean school A or school B needs an entire faculty dedicated to that end so that a student can minor or major in that area? In many instances I think the answer is "no". As an example Georgia "Tech" offers minors and/or majors in French, German, Russian, Political Science, Middle Eastern Studies, etc. What's the cost / benefit of all those offerings across the entire student body at a school tied to engineering and science?

Interesting, btw that the average cost for an in-state student there from a family making less than 30K is just over half for a student from a family making more than 100K (again demonstrating that schools are not really smoothing out the peanut butter evenly between the "rich" and the "poor" - I presume because in order to remain competitive for enrollments they have more applicants and need to attract more students from the 100+K demographic than they have/do from the less than 30K demographic).
 
DeacMan, I'm not personally vested in tuition costs. My salary doesn't even really come from it because I bring in more than I get.

Again, you're a newcomer to an almost 10 year conversation and you can easily find my takes on this instead of making lazy ridiculous accusations based on my profession.

You regularly enter an argument you know little about and haven't participated in to berate people who actually know what they're talking about and have shown willingness to learn and maintain productive dialogue. What you're doing is like if I went on the EPL thread and started spouting off about why I think Everton is overrated and then didn't bother to pay attention to ongoing discussions.

By definition you are vested in tuition costs. I'm glad you pay for yourself. But your work environment and prospective job satisfaction, as is the case with any employee, is impacted by a host of things beyond your salary.

Again, speak to the role colleges and universities have to contain costs, if you believe there are any. Otherwise telling me that because I don't post here all the time somehow disqualifies me from putting up data and engaging in discussion is a waste of one of your 120K+ posts. If you don't want to engage, then don't.
 
Anyone who now has kids who are starting to look at colleges still feel a sliver of juvenile condescension against State, Clemson, App, etc even though those are all quality institutions, and it feels like insanity to send your kid to Wake, short of them receiving significant assistance or having money be no object for you?
 
Anyone who now has kids who are starting to look at colleges still feel a sliver of juvenile condescension against State, Clemson, App, etc even though those are all quality institutions, and it feels like insanity to send your kid to Wake, short of them receiving significant assistance or having money be no object for you?

For me, personally, not at all. My son was interested in STEM majors and NC State is a damn fine STEM school. I had/have zero issues with him applying there and encouraged him to do so. In fact, based on the cost of Wake now, I'm not sure I would even suggest looking at Wake as a viable option for someone living in NC unless (as you said) they get a meaningful scholarship and/or money is no object. He may actually be employable after earning a four year degree, which is a bonus.
 
Wake was not a viable option for us. At the time, the posted average student debt for Wake was $40k. That average includes a lot of rich kids paying full freight with zero debt, so there are many with much higher than $40k debt upon graduation. She will graduate UNC next year debt free.

My son is beginning his college search and State and App are his first two choices for his current interest/major. We have pretty much directed him to state schools.

I will give credit to Duke. They cap their annual student debt at $5k/yr, so the max student debt upon graduating Duke is $20k. That's not too bad.
 
Maybe ease up on our six full time chaplains
 
Fascinating discussion to which I have nothing to add at this time, other than I felt the need to point out this unfortunate typo:
No, you really have explained very little. Your statement as to why about 50% of African American students 4 years post grad hold even more debt than when they graduate makes great sense. I can totally buy into that explantation.
 
DeacMan, if you want to engage, you’ll just make the two clicks needed to read what I’ve wrote on this thread and then respond. You’d see I’m against the factors at the university level that contribute to rising tuition costs but I also understand it’s a much bigger issue. You refuse to discuss broader inequality.

Otherwise you just want me to waste my time by responding to a caricature you’ve made up of me. You don’t want to engage. You just want to be mad at higher education and use me as a whipping boy.

I thought Wake wasn’t realistic due to cost. But the oldest child from my group of Wake friends from Wake is going to Wake next year. Wake came up with a reasonable package that dropped the cost comparable to app. No idea if my boys will want to go to Wake one day but it’s nice to know it’s could be an option.
 
I'm no expert and don't have tons of data to cite to - but, something has obviously caused the cost of attending college to skyrocket over the past 2-3 decades as compared to the cost of literally everything else.

As a parent who has put a couple of kids through college and, as a result, visited quite a few campuses as they were selecting a school - it is obvious that college has morphed from a time when kids expected to live a fun but spartan existence as they pursued their education to a time of luxury.

Realizing that the demographics of the US has led to increasing kids of college age every year for a few decades (though it is now leveling off and maybe starting down) and that employment opportunities and societal expectations have also been increasing the perceived need for a college education - leads to the conclusion that colleges have had to compete more and more for the attention of students. Adding the relatively easy access to student loans just makes it more likely that those increasing numbers of college-aged kids will all in fact want to go to college.

An obvious way they have competed is through the campus facilities arms race - as well as other services being offered to entice students, including expanding numbers of majors to address every niche of interest. All of this is very expensive.

Whether these factors adequately explain all or most of the out-of-control inflation of the cost of higher education, I don't know. And, I am not offering any solutions... I'm sure others have said the same thing before, and better... Hell, I probably said the same thing before on this same thread some long time ago... Just thought I would throw my two cents in.
 
Is this really an issue? I would think this has very, very little effect on the cost of education, especially when you consider that costs are rising everywhere and not just at P5 schools. Besides, the donation money that comes into athletic departments is often independent from the education side of things and donated exclusively for the purpose of facilities upgrades, coaches, etc. (Note that non-athletic facility upgrades would not be included in my non-scientific assessment). That doesn't include the payouts from conference affiliations/TV contracts, bowl games, etc.

i think the ready supply of money from federally subsidized loans appears to have contributed to a bubble - just like what happens with health care when you have insurance companies making all the payments instead of the end users. i don't know how MUCH of a bubble it is though. When I was at wake in the early 90s, I recall the cost was around $14k/year. It's now 5x that, in a period where everything else has probably doubled in price. (Starting accountants at our firm, for example, make $65k, compared to $32k that I made in 1994.)

Anyone who now has kids who are starting to look at colleges still feel a sliver of juvenile condescension against State, Clemson, App, etc even though those are all quality institutions, and it feels like insanity to send your kid to Wake, short of them receiving significant assistance or having money be no object for you?

I mean, my son is going to App next year, so I have been able to quit hassling him about personal hygiene.
 
Anyone who now has kids who are starting to look at colleges still feel a sliver of juvenile condescension against State, Clemson, App, etc even though those are all quality institutions, and it feels like insanity to send your kid to Wake, short of them receiving significant assistance or having money be no object for you?

Hmmmm. Not a bit. App has been an excellent experience for our oldest. Our youngest will go there next year. Both will graduate debt free and I will save approximately $400k, maybe a little more.

Edited to say I haven't really thought through how much extra I would be willing to pay for a WFU experience if that is what my kids wanted but I would probably look to convince myself the extra cost provided good value.
 
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On the topic of states underfunding universities:

[h=1]'Theft At A Scale That Is Unprecedented': Behind The Underfunding Of HBCUs[/h]
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996617532/behind-the-underfunding-of-hbcus

Tennessee could owe a historically Black university more than a half-billion dollars after it withheld funding for decades.
A bipartisan legislative committee determined last month that the state failed to adequately fund Tennessee State University in matched land grants going all the way back to the 1950s, costing the public university between $150 million and $544 million.
When the school was founded, the federal government designated it a land-grant institution, as it did with the University of Tennessee. Under the program, the state ofTennessee was required to match the federal money sent to the schools each year.
"In TSU's case, the state did not match the funds dollar-for-dollar for decades," stated a news release from the legislative committee.
Tennessee State isn't the only historically Black college or university missing out on state funds. Maryland recently finalized a $577 million settlement to resolve a lawsuit alleging the state had underfunded its four HBCUs.

On how segregation laws created funding disparities in higher education
Well, since the '50s, since Brown v. Board, the federal government ordered states to desegregate their schools. And most people just think that occurred in the K-12 arena, but it also occurred for higher education institutions. And by the way, most HBCUs are in Southern states. And so there has just been a reticence to desegregate higher ed based on funding, and so many of these states created funding formulas that regularly just shortchanged HBCUs.
 
No idea why the Tennessee leg decided to investigate this now, but I would not be surprised if this was the case at just about all hbcus with a similar "equal funding" designation (which I'd never heard about).
 
Yeah. That point is made at the end of the article.

On the argument that a lack of alumni donations is responsible for the financial problems at HBCUs
When people say this is a problem of people giving ... what they're really saying is we're going to blame Black people for the lack of funding in Black institutions, abdicating the state's responsibility to do so. That's all that it's saying. We need to expose this lack of funding as really theft at a scale that is unprecedented.
So that's why this is just horrible, these findings. And we should go deeper. We should do an investigation at every state, for every HBCU, and we should assume that they are being robbed.

Here's more about the Maryland settlement.
https://apnews.com/article/larry-ho...on-education-d9a76565b03653234200033bed7a5862

The lawsuit dating to 2006 accused Maryland of underfunding these institutions while developing programs at traditionally white schools that directly competed with them, draining away prospective students. In 2013, a federal judge found that the state had maintained “a dual and segregated education system” that violated the Constitution.
 
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[h=1]Is it time to rethink the value of college?[/h]
Higher education may not be doomed, but it’s in trouble.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21279216/higher-education-college-america-student-debt

One dude's opinion but interesting thoughts.

[h=4]Sean Illing[/h] How much of the turmoil in higher ed is due to the complete embrace of the business mode? So many universities have disinvested in teaching and turned college into a post-adolescent consumer experience. Is that a big part of the story for you?
[h=4]Kevin Carey[/h] Well, there’s only one real model of success in higher education: the academic city-state. It’s the global research university. Everybody wants to be the University of Michigan or something like that. Obviously there’s the Ivy League, but the Ivy League is such a strange and esoteric place. What you really want to be is a big, successful, prosperous institution that has all kinds of smart people and beautiful buildings and sports teams and grassy lawns and football games on Saturdays and social prestige and everyone makes enough money to have a nice little house where they can ride their bike to work. That’s the model of a successful university.
But this is very much a zero-sum game, and everyone’s trying to get there at the same time. There are only so many upper-middle-class students to pay full tuition to support your lazy river and your science center. So there can only be so many University of Michigans. I think a new report came out yesterday that says that private colleges now provide on average about a 54 percent discount against the published tuition price. And that number is going up every year. So they’ve just kind of exhausted their pricing power.
If universities play this game and lose, they end up in a tough spot. What we need, from a societal and policy standpoint, is most institutions not trying to be University of Michigan. There shouldn’t be 2,000 research universities in this country. What we need is probably like 300 great research universities and 1,700 universities that are mostly there for teaching. But if status is about research and teaching is just something that you do because you have to, and so therefore you do it as cheaply as possible with basically an indifference to quality, that’s not good for anyone. Including the institution. But that’s where we are right now.
 
Blistering article in the WSJ.

My summary: Ivy League school screws some grad students just as bad as for profit schools.

“Recent film program graduates of Columbia University who took out federal student loans had a median debt of $181,000. Yet two years after earning their master’s degrees, half of the borrowers were making less than $30,000 a year. Recent Columbia film alumni had the highest debt compared with earnings among graduates of any major university master’s program in the U.S. The New York City university is among the world’s most prestigious schools, and its $11.3 billion endowment ranks it the nation’s eighth wealthiest private school."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/financ...Zyhee27Q52QNx8ohJERK4qM3kujnqaxTTU49T1BGaZusU

For most with a paywall, here's a detailed summary you might be able to reach: https://www.facebook.com/1169996983...to-conceal-it-especially-on/4473365926006849/
 
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