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Official 2020-21 NBA Finals - Milwaukee Bucks win the NBA Championship!

Now that he's dating Selena Gomez, is Jimmy Butler practicing for his next role?

 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Also, if you're building for the next 10 years, what is the order of who do you take - Luka, Trae, Zion, Ja, or LaMelo?
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Tough question after Luka. I'd probably go Trae, LaMelo, Ja, Zion.

Zion needs a lot of tools to be a #1 guy on a championship team. He should be more dominant rebounder and he needs a reliable 3 point shot. I don't see a championship team in the next 10 years that doesn't have a dominant wing or dominant guard.
 
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PhDeac said:
Tough question after Luka. I'd probably go Trae, LaMelo, Ja, Zion.

Zion needs a lot of tools to be a #1 guy on a championship team. He should be more dominant rebounder and he needs a reliable 3 point shot. I don't see a championship team in the next 10 years that doesn't have a dominant wing or dominant guard.
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PhDeac is not backing down from his Trae love. Even if I don't agree, I respect your loyalty.
 
Luka is the opposite of #tooathletic

it's really puzzling to watch him sometimes and understand how he's so good


Zion just can't guard any position really at all that i've seen
 
I already know somebody is just going to yell at me about defense, but I genuinely have no idea how you could put Trae definitively below anyone not named Luka on that list. Trae put up 29/9 with a 59.5% TS% last year and you guys are going to take Lamelo Ball over him?
 
Nobody on the list is a positive defender. There's a perfectly reasonable argument that Trae's offensive ceiling being higher than all the non-Luka guys outweighs that his defensive ceiling is lower than the non-Luka guys.
 
a (small) knock on Trae too is concerns about him as a teammate

(probably the John Collins-colored glasses shading part of that for me)
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
a (small) knock on Trae too is concerns about him as a teammate

(probably the John Collins-colored glasses shading part of that for me)
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Media overblew that massively. There's been literally no problems aside from one film session where John brought up Trae shooting long threes early in the shot clock. If you watch the Hawks game tonight you'll be able to tell immediately there's no problems between John and Trae that are affecting either one's play.

The bigger concern about Trae as a teammate is that you have to surround him with guys that can hide him on defense, but there's plenty of 3&D guys in the league that can fit that style of play really well.
 
deacon14 said:
I already know somebody is just going to yell at me about defense, but I genuinely have no idea how you could put Trae definitively below anyone not named Luka on that list. Trae put up 29/9 with a 59.5% TS% last year and you guys are going to take Lamelo Ball over him?
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Exactly. The most important thing is that we already have a model of a championship team in which a player similar Trae is the best player. The Hawks wanted Trae to be their Steph. Unfortunately, they passed on Luka who is on a Lebron trajectory in terms of immense talent and production.

I'm curious why you all think Ja or LaMelo would be a better pick than Trae. LaMelo looks like an elite passer but Trae is already a league leader in assists. Ja averaged 12 fewer points than Trae last year. He's got Iverson like ability to get to the rack but he's not a shooter.
 
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PhDeac said:
I'm curious why you all think Ja or LaMelo would be a better pick than Trae.
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I'm not sure I even understand the argument that would have to be made to take Zion over Trae. The hole in his game regarding 3 point shooting is just as important in the modern NBA as Trae's defense, no? Is the idea that Zion is more likely to develop the ability to shoot than Trae is to play D?

I really believe NBA fans have a real problem with grabbing onto narratives and just never letting go regardless of what happens. Zion was billed as the next GOAT ahead of his draft whereas Trae got traded for Luka and had a terrible beginning to his rookie year.
 
deacon14 said:
I already know somebody is just going to yell at me about defense, but I genuinely have no idea how you could put Trae definitively below anyone not named Luka on that list. Trae put up 29/9 with a 59.5% TS% last year and you guys are going to take Lamelo Ball over him?
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Trae is the worst starting defensive guard I've seen in the NBA in decades. It's not just that he refuses to guard anyone, but his being out of position makes it nearly impossible for his teammates to play D.

Please don't try to give me defensive analytics. For two years, James Harden was ranked in the Top 25 defenders analytically, and he sucks. His numbers were hyper-inflated playing with a shot blocker(Capela), an all-time guard defender (C P3) and two All Star wing defenders (Ariza, Mbah a Moute). Every game Harden played the worst non-center on the opposing team. Behind him was a shot blocker. CP3, Luc and Ariza are among the best passing lane and help defenders in the NBA over the past number of years. I could have been ranked in the Top 40 NBA defenders on that team.
 
RJKarl said:
Please don't try to give me defensive analytics. For two years, James Harden was ranked in the Top 25 defenders analytically, and he sucks. His numbers were hyper-inflated playing with a shot blocker(Capela), an all-time guard defender (C P3) and two All Star wing defenders (Ariza, Mbah a Moute). Every game Harden played the worst non-center on the opposing team. Behind him was a shot blocker. CP3, Luc and Ariza are among the best passing lane and help defenders in the NBA over the past number of years. I could have been ranked in the Top 40 NBA defenders on that team.
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Damn, it's almost like playing defense is a team effort. You guys go ahead and take someone with a lower offensive ceiling that can play below-average to average individual defense. I'll take the best offensive talents I can and build my team in a way to make the defense work.
 
deacon14 said:
I'm not sure I even understand the argument that would have to be made to take Zion over Trae. The hole in his game regarding 3 point shooting is just as important in the modern NBA as Trae's defense, no? Is the idea that Zion is more likely to develop the ability to shoot than Trae is to play D? I really believe NBA fans have a real problem with grabbing onto narratives and just never letting go regardless of what happens. Zion was billed as the next GOAT ahead of his draft whereas Trae got traded for Luka and had a terrible beginning to his rookie year.
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This. I admire Pilch's loyalty to a shitty narrative. I think it's crazy that we have to defend a guy who was an All-Star, #4 in scoring, and #2 in assists at 21 years old in his 2nd year in the league. Trae's trajectory is somewhere around Harden and Steph and he's going to get there quicker than them. Steph didn't make the All-Star Game until his 5th year. Harden was Sixth Man of the Year his 3rd year and an All-Star his 4th year.
 
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i like trae, but on a championship team i think he can only operate as a 6th man, although i think being a good 6th man is massively underrated.

to that point, if i were ranking the things i wanted to target to build a championship team they'd be in order:

1/ superstar who leads the locker room and keys the offense
2/ complementary star, which is way harder to fill than it might seem. there are tons of guys who are basically failed superstars who can't fill this roll well
3/ sixth man who can get buckets
4/ well-rounded third starter

then fill out the rest of the team. there are tons of guys in the league who have good stats but have a tough time fitting into the above. i think guys like klay thompson (rip) are so valued because they can really nicely shift between roles on championship caliber teams.

so back to the question:
luka - legit #1 who could also be #2
zion- thought he could be #2, but didnt realize his defense was bad
lamelo- at least a #4, but think he'll be #2
trae- #3
ja- hardest one to place for me, but probably could fit into #2 or #3
 
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I thought that reddit unanimously saying that Derrick White was more valuable to a team than Trae about a year ago was as insane as it would get. I guess the new rock bottom is essentially equating Trae to Lou Williams.
 
hmmm... on the apetit model

I think the Raptors (kinda) fit that model (no real get buckets 6th man; plus obviously a lot of injury luck) but the Warriors with KD and the Lakers last year defs had two #1 guys, which historically is pretty rare

Heat made it to the Finals without a #1 though while the Bucks are probably closer to the apetit model than any other Eastern Conference team last year (the Sixers too)
 
PhDeac said:
This. I admire Pilch's loyalty to a shitty narrative. I think it's crazy that we have to defend a guy who was an All-Star, #4 in scoring, and #2 in assists at 21 years old in his 2nd year in the league. Trae's trajectory is somewhere around Harden and Steph and he's going to get there quicker than them. Steph didn't make the All-Star Game until his 5th year. Harden was Sixth Man of the Year his 3rd year and an All-Star his 4th year.
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Ph,

I'm not saying you are wrong. The jury is out on all of those five, even Luka. Maybe, in ten years, Trae will have Iverson's career, plus a title, and the rest of that group will be just good, but not great players. I really respect that you aren't backing down from supporting Trae. No one knows for certain,who among that group will become "great" versus "good". It appears that to me that Trae will only be an elite scorer, but not able to lift his team to elite status, but it's early and that could be wrong.
 
deacon14 said:
Nobody on the list is a positive defender. There's a perfectly reasonable argument that Trae's offensive ceiling being higher than all the non-Luka guys outweighs that his defensive ceiling is lower than the non-Luka guys.
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If he isn't already, LaMelo will definitely soon be a positive defender. He gets a ton of steals and deflections, plus blocks in the paint as a PG. As he showed against the Bucks, he can completely disrupt the game on the defensive end. He isn't always in the right spot currently, but he hustles his balls off on the defensive end much more than the other 4, which given his size, athleticism, and the fact that he has never really been coached until now, would seem to indicate that he'll be a very good defender. And he is already a much better defender than advertised without even getting an NBA camp or preseason. After watching him for a quarter season at his age and without the benefit of camp, I'd take him over everyone but Luka.
 
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