WF at the Irish: EARLY START Tuesday -- 5 pm ACCN

DCDeac said:

This wasn't some horrible game from start to finish - we staged a nice comeback in the first half to tie it, and if I remember that 3 pointer they hit to close out the half was like a beyond NBA heave when they almost had a shot-clock violation. We really were playing solid and keeping it close despite poor shooting on a lot of good looks.

But I think Ph said it best - that opening 5 minutes of the 2nd half was probably our worst basketball of the year. We start with Neath making a pathetic defensive wave at a 3 pointer. Next Massoud plays matador that results in a dunk. Mucius gave up consecutive buckets plus a foul, we tried putting in Jalen and he immediately dropped behind a screen to give up another wide open 3. After we tied it up, we went scoreless for 6 minutes while giving up 19 points. Ody's 2 buckets were the only points we scored in over a quarter of the game, which is pretty incredible.

This team will likely struggle all year to find the rotating hot hand each game, assuming there's one to find. They can't take 6 minutes off on the defensive end against anyone decent and hope to weather the inherent dry spells.

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Disagree. The effort was lackluster from the tip. We were lucky in the first half that they missed a ton of open looks.

I'm with you that we were in the game during the first half, but I think that was more due to ND's equally shitty play.

We missed a ton of shots, but I'm not sure a lot of them were good looks. The offense looked ugly last night, even with ND providing very little ball pressure.

saus21 said:

Well my point is it takes more than a couple of months to establish a culture. Really the only guy Forbes brought with him is arguably their best player and does a little bit of everything on the court and that is Davien. Just think the Manning guys disappear at times (with possible exception of Oquama when he stays out of foul trouble) and don't check all the boxes game in and game out. Whether it is just 4 out of ten, those 4 are getting alot of minutes. I think the only Forbes guys are Williamson, Johnson and Antonio. I could be wrong on that.

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I'd add Whitt & Okpomo to your list of "Forbes guys", but I'm not sure you can really call Wilkins and Dubose "Manning guys" since they never were on campus when he was here.

Will the team get better once Forbes has a roster full of guys he brought in himself? Sure, but I don't think that means we can't expect returning players to adapt to a new system.

saus21 said:

Well my point is it takes more than a couple of months to establish a culture. Really the only guy Forbes brought with him is arguably their best player and does a little bit of everything on the court and that is Davien. Just think the Manning guys disappear at times (with possible exception of Oquama when he stays out of foul trouble) and don't check all the boxes game in and game out. Whether it is just 4 out of ten, those 4 are getting alot of minutes. I think the only Forbes guys are Williamson, Johnson and Antonio. I could be wrong on that.

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left out Whitt and Okpomo as a Forbes guys.

DeacsOrDie said:

Wait are we having a meltdown over last nights loss?

In that case, Forbes has done a damn good job of raising expectations already.

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Admittedly having not read posts from during the game, kind of feels like the meltdown was exacerbated by Forbes' postgame comments.

Which is fine. He obviously has felt strongly for a while that this team has a problem with selfishness. There just wasn't a performance to publicly talk about it.

But it's mind-blowing that when he says that, and when he even adds, "That’s on me, and I have to find a way to make it better," there people here and on Twitter and I'm assuming elsewhere that will make it all about the culture of Manning still emanating.

Have you thought that at any point this season before now? When they're hanging with UVA, Duke, UNC, etc. and playing games tight that would've been blowouts in years past, how much of an issue was previous culture?

My feeling is that it's easier for some of you to assign blame to Manning for the first legit blowout loss of the season, and to -- again -- the 4 players who played for him out of a 10-player rotation, than it is to handle reality.

I mean damn. Danny can't hurt you anymore.

(also, this is not directed at DeacsOrDie, just trying to sum up some thoughts on several posts)

Antonio started the game, but Neath replaced him to start the second half. That was sending a message, but it turned out that Neath was even worse. What does Massoud bring when he’s not hitting shots? We’ve played much better defense this year than the previous 10, but the second half last night was beyond awful. Forbes took plenty of responsibility, but I’m glad he said what he did about the players. They all need a kick in the ass after that performance.

DeacsATS said:

Disagree. The effort was lackluster from the tip. We were lucky in the first half that they missed a ton of open looks.

I'm with you that we were in the game during the first half, but I think that was more due to ND's equally shitty play.

We missed a ton of shots, but I'm not sure a lot of them were good looks. The offense looked ugly last night, even with ND providing very little ball pressure.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DeacsATS again.

Also, 100% on the bolded part. ND started 0-6 on 3s and was still up 7. WF was in the game because it didn't commit turnovers at the normal rate -- more to do with ND than with WF -- and got some timely shooting.

CONeill said:

Admittedly having not read posts from during the game, kind of feels like the meltdown was exacerbated by Forbes' postgame comments.

Which is fine. He obviously has felt strongly for a while that this team has a problem with selfishness. There just wasn't a performance to publicly talk about it.

But it's mind-blowing that when he says that, and when he even adds, "That’s on me, and I have to find a way to make it better," there people here and on Twitter and I'm assuming elsewhere that will make it all about the culture of Manning still emanating.

Have you thought that at any point this season before now? When they're hanging with UVA, Duke, UNC, etc. and playing games tight that would've been blowouts in years past, how much of an issue was previous culture?

My feeling is that it's easier for some of you to assign blame to Manning for the first legit blowout loss of the season, and to -- again -- the 4 players who played for him out of a 10-player rotation, than it is to handle reality.

I mean damn. Danny can't hurt you anymore.

(also, this is not directed at DeacsOrDie, just trying to sum up some thoughts on several posts)

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I appreciate it and all you do reporting.

I do think erasing the Manning-culture (but really the past 11 years of Wake basketball) is definitely a hurdle Forbes is fighting to get over (or erase).

But I do not think that is what he is complaining about last night. I appreciated what he said last night. He thought for 2.5 weeks we had adapted our Identity (comes before culture) and last night was an exception to the rule of what he wants to establish. He was pissed we played that way but is also taking responsibility. He knows it's a process, but part of that process is when we have games like this, call it out immediately.

Honestly, I expected more games like last night than what we have had so far this season. The apathy set in of "oh well" but the difference was I also felt "we will bounce back next game." That's a change.

Eh, I think a lot of it is the usual message board stuff. Massoud goes off for 31 and he's the greatest shooter ever, needs more minutes, etc. Knee-jerk reactions. He then shoots 19% over his next 3 games. Jalen has a good night and posts argue for him to start, that he's actually a good defender and player, etc. On either side of that one game are 2 point efforts. Now Antonio should sit, but he'll hit 4 3's in a couple weeks and he'll be back in the argument for starting.

This game isn't a referendum on anything. It wasn't a 40 minute meltdown. We lack talent, we came out dead at halftime, we gave up a 20-0 run and got blown out. It happens. Forbes deserves blame for the lack of energy the 2nd half started with because we've all seen this team keep the intensity elevated for long stretches against good teams. And Notre Dame is a good team playing at home.

It will also be true that when this team can't score in 10 minutes that it's largely due to the lack of talent that Manning left in his disastrous wake. But it's boring as hell to just accept that we're at the bottom of the heap talent-wise, fixing programs isn't a light switch, everyone is flawed and inconsistent, and game-to-game overreactions will be the norm for a while despite being meaningless.

We suck, and it's just going to be a game of blame bingo until we don't suck.

It is absolutely the case that a toxic culture existed around Wake basketball for ten years prior to Forbes' arrival. Don't underestimate the extent to which that sort of culture can permeate the entire program. If you think Forbes was going to be able to root that out in less than one full season, while at the same time dealing with Covid, I don't know what to tell you.

This whole season is a long series of exhibition games. We shouldn't even be meaningfully evaluating Forbes or the team until the 2021-2022 season. Seriously. Just sit back and enjoy watching basketball and be excited about what the future holds.

DCDeac said:

Eh, I think a lot of it is the usual message board stuff. Massoud goes off for 31 and he's the greatest shooter ever, needs more minutes, etc. Knee-jerk reactions. He then shoots 19% over his next 3 games. Jalen has a good night and posts argue for him to start, that he's actually a good defender and player, etc. On either side of that one game are 2 point efforts. Now Antonio should sit, but he'll hit 4 3's in a couple weeks and he'll be back in the argument for starting.

This game isn't a referendum on anything. It wasn't a 40 minute meltdown. We lack talent, we came out dead at halftime, we gave up a 20-0 run and got blown out. It happens. Forbes deserves blame for the lack of energy the 2nd half started with because we've all seen this team keep the intensity elevated for long stretches against good teams. And Notre Dame is a good team playing at home.

It will also be true that when this team can't score in 10 minutes that it's largely due to the lack of talent that Manning left in his disastrous wake. But it's boring as hell to just accept that we're at the bottom of the heap talent-wise, fixing programs isn't a light switch, everyone is flawed and inconsistent, and game-to-game overreactions will be the norm for a while despite being meaningless.

We suck, and it's just going to be a game of blame bingo until we don't suck.

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Totally agree.

For those that take the time to watch Forbes' press conferences, he loves his players. All of them. It doesn't matter if they were recruited by Manning or if Forbes brought them here. As stated by DCDeac, was Massoud a Forbes guy when single-handedly took out Pitt? Forbes raves about Isaiah Mucius; singled-out his attitude when WF beat Pitt, and Mucius was held scoreless; Isaiah did not care because the Deacs won.

After the game, Forbes was pissed because ND out-classed WF, and for the first time this year, WF never fought back when they faced adversity. News flash: this WF team isn't super-talented; WF ACC opponents are more talented, and have multi-million coaches and staffs that are gameplanning to beat WF. Other than BC (and maybe including BC), WF is the least talented team in the ACC. Doesn't mean that Forbes has segregated the team into "his guys" and "others". The opposite is true. This team is 100% together, and until last night, they fight to the bitter end. Last night was the exception, and Forbes was pissed. The man hates to lose.

As good of a coach as Forbes is, his ETSU teams had some craptastic efforts too, and he recruited all of those guys. Last year's 30-4 SoCon Championship team lost to Mercer (yes, Mercer) by 16. The year before, his 24 win team lost to Furman by 30. It happens to every team at some point.

Notre Dame was the better team. While they aren't uber-talented, they are more talented than WF, they are bigger and more experienced. WF does not have a big margin of error to be competitive. Yesterday, ND brought their A game, and for the first time since GT, WF did not. So, WF got dominated. Feel confident that WF will bring its A game, whenever the next game is, and WF's best player that night may be someone that Manning recruited, and that player will continue to play his ass off for his coach.

Along those lines, for decades this board seems to pick out a player or two each year (regardless of how the team is playing) to attack if the bubble they blow with their gum isn't a perfect circle.

DCDeac said:

Eh, I think a lot of it is the usual message board stuff. Massoud goes off for 31 and he's the greatest shooter ever, needs more minutes, etc. Knee-jerk reactions. He then shoots 19% over his next 3 games. Jalen has a good night and posts argue for him to start, that he's actually a good defender and player, etc. On either side of that one game are 2 point efforts. Now Antonio should sit, but he'll hit 4 3's in a couple weeks and he'll be back in the argument for starting.

This game isn't a referendum on anything. It wasn't a 40 minute meltdown. We lack talent, we came out dead at halftime, we gave up a 20-0 run and got blown out. It happens. Forbes deserves blame for the lack of energy the 2nd half started with because we've all seen this team keep the intensity elevated for long stretches against good teams. And Notre Dame is a good team playing at home.

It will also be true that when this team can't score in 10 minutes that it's largely due to the lack of talent that Manning left in his disastrous wake. But it's boring as hell to just accept that we're at the bottom of the heap talent-wise, fixing programs isn't a light switch, everyone is flawed and inconsistent, and game-to-game overreactions will be the norm for a while despite being meaningless.

We suck, and it's just going to be a game of blame bingo until we don't suck.

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Definitely agree that we criticize individual players too much for one game performances. I'm guilty of that at times (especially with comments I've made that Whitt was playing too much).

I would argue that there is a difference between lack of talent and lack of execution... And I think Forbes is frustrated with the latter. The offense doesn't run like he wants it to run. There are players that are not putting in 100% effort if their shots aren't falling (or they aren't getting their shots). There is a lack of competitive fire after a loss. These are all things that Forbes mentioned in his postgame presser.

I actually don't think we are lacking the talent to compete in the ACC this year. The month off and the shitty schedule were definitely bad hands to be dealt, but the ACC (as a whole) is not as talented as it has been. There are no elite teams at the top this season. There are a lot of teams lacking talent in the middle to bottom of the league. There is no reason why we can't finish the year closer to 10th or 11th than 15th.

I understand the narrative that this is a throw away year in many respects, but that doesn't preclude the team from establishing that identity that Forbes has talked about since day one.

I'd like to see Johnson's minutes increase. He is a good shooter who has little problem getting his shot off with his length. Also athletic. Maybe he isn't very good on D, but it seems our offense improves when he is on the floor.

"I actually don't think we are lacking the talent to compete in the ACC this year."

I don't get this at all. What do you mean by "compete" in this sense? What teams in the ACC have less talent than us? We don't have a player in the ACC Top 10 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, or field goal percentage. I'll let you guess how many other ACC teams can claim that incredible statistic.

We absolutely lack enough talent to compete in the ACC. Although Ody has improved massively and Eman shows some flashes, we will continue to get abused inside. This makes covering us on the perimeter easier and precludes us from running much to get easy baskets. If you can't easy baskets, it's damn near impossible to win.

CONeill said:

Admittedly having not read posts from during the game, kind of feels like the meltdown was exacerbated by Forbes' postgame comments.

Which is fine. He obviously has felt strongly for a while that this team has a problem with selfishness. There just wasn't a performance to publicly talk about it.

But it's mind-blowing that when he says that, and when he even adds, "That’s on me, and I have to find a way to make it better," there people here and on Twitter and I'm assuming elsewhere that will make it all about the culture of Manning still emanating.

Have you thought that at any point this season before now? When they're hanging with UVA, Duke, UNC, etc. and playing games tight that would've been blowouts in years past, how much of an issue was previous culture?

My feeling is that it's easier for some of you to assign blame to Manning for the first legit blowout loss of the season, and to -- again -- the 4 players who played for him out of a 10-player rotation, than it is to handle reality.

I mean damn. Danny can't hurt you anymore.

(also, this is not directed at DeacsOrDie, just trying to sum up some thoughts on several posts)

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You make some good points however Forbes did say this culture of accepting losing and not playing all facets of the game (being selfish) was here when he arrived. I don't think he is talking about the high school senior or the very green Okpomo who plays limited minutes. Perhaps to a lesser extent Antonio or Johnson but to a greater extent the guys that played here last year. Clearly Manning did not establish a mindset that you must play all facets of the game. Our defense sucked every year and there was no accountability. So yes breaking bad habits and taking responsibility is something he is trying to address.

DCDeac said:

"I actually don't think we are lacking the talent to compete in the ACC this year."

I don't get this at all. What do you mean by "compete" in this sense? What teams in the ACC have less talent than us? We don't have a player in the ACC Top 10 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, or field goal percentage. I'll let you guess how many other ACC teams can claim that incredible statistic.

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Compete in that I think we shouldn't finish last. Not a high bar. I didn't mean to imply that we should approach .500 or be in the upper half.

I think our roster is as good as: BC PITT CLEM CUSE MIA.

ND GT NCSU have more talent, but I don't think they are significantly better (especially with NCSU's roster issues).

2-8 right now with 8 games left on the schedule. I'd like to see us go 3-5 in those games... Only @FSU and @VT are games where we're clearly out-matched (and on the road).

RJKarl said:

Along those lines, for decades this board seems to pick out a player or two each year (regardless of how the team is playing) to attack if the bubble they blow with their gum isn't a perfect circle.

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The Robert O'Kelley complex

DeacsATS said:

Compete in that I think we shouldn't finish last. Not a high bar. I didn't mean to imply that we should approach .500 or be in the upper half.

I think our roster is as good as: BC PITT CLEM CUSE MIA.

ND GT NCSU have more talent, but I don't think they are significantly better (especially with NCSU's roster issues).

2-8 right now with 8 games left on the schedule. I'd like to see us go 3-5 in those games... Only @FSU and @VT are games where we're clearly out-matched (and on the road).

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5-13 in the ACC would be pretty incredible in my opinion. Would love to see it.

DeacsATS said:

Compete in that I think we shouldn't finish last. Not a high bar. I didn't mean to imply that we should approach .500 or be in the upper half.

I think our roster is as good as: BC PITT CLEM CUSE MIA.

ND GT NCSU have more talent, but I don't think they are significantly better (especially with NCSU's roster issues).

2-8 right now with 8 games left on the schedule. I'd like to see us go 3-5 in those games... Only @FSU and @VT are games where we're clearly out-matched (and on the road).

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I'm not trying to be a dick but c'mon. Pitt has the leading scorer and the leading assist guys in the ACC.

A depleted Miami, ok. BC, ok. If we had Simms he'd immediately be our best player. 3 Pitt players would probably start for us. 2 or 3 players from Syracuse would start for us.

So we beat Miami and are ahead of BC. Sounds about right.