• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Biden to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by 9/11/21

Actually, I will put my record up against yours here. I didn't vote for my party's nominee because he didn't meet my standards.

But you fell in line, didn't you?

I will put my posting record up against yours, for sure. I've been way more vocally critical of the Democratic party online than you have about the Republican party. Not that it matters, but I didn't vote for President in 2020 because DC went 93% blue and my vote meant jack shit.

The difference between you and me is I will absolutely call out the utter horseshit I see taking place within the leadership of the party I closest identify with. I think earlier in this thread you said something about holding your leaders to a higher standard, I think that should be the case regardless of what party they reside in.

I am perfectly happy blaming a bipartisan collection of warmongering ghouls for funneling a trillion dollars into a few companies for the last 20 years in the name of state building, chalking it up to a failure of execution rather than a failure of ideas, letting the media feast for a few weeks, and then forgetting the whole thing happened. I'm pretty sure in the spectrum of far right to far left, mine is more or less the only ideology not utterly captured by the concept of American exceptionalism and empire building supremacy, but let's go off about our records.
 
There's no winning messaging from the left either. It may actually end up increasing the bipartisan efforts around infrastructure since everyone will be very excited to change the subject as quickly as possible.

And the message should be, what if we had just invested nearly a trillion into our own infrastucture instead of a lousy war.
 
And the message should be, what if we had just invested nearly a trillion into our own infrastucture instead of a lousy war.

Imagine if you'd listened to the actual left in...say...2001.
 
Not that Americans have the political attention or historical acumen to address this as a nation, but I'd prefer if we took this pivotal time to reflect on the extent to which we value military and national supremacy in the 21st Century. It feels to me like we can either address existential threats facing our world (climate, accelerating inequality) or we can renew our commitment to 19th Century empire-building and use the military as the frontier of that empire, but we can't do both. I think that's how this should be framed, because we never meaningfully ask whether or not it's cool to write a blank check to the Pentagon for $750BN every year. We just argue in the margins about one off budget reconciliation line items.
 
Not that Americans have the political attention or historical acumen to address this as a nation, but I'd prefer if we took this pivotal time to reflect on the extent to which we value military and national supremacy in the 21st Century. It feels to me like we can either address existential threats facing our world (climate, accelerating inequality) or we can renew our commitment to 19th Century empire-building and use the military as the frontier of that empire, but we can't do both. I think that's how this should be framed, because we never meaningfully ask whether or not it's cool to write a blank check to the Pentagon for $750BN every year. We just argue in the margins about one off budget reconciliation line items.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TownieDeac again.
 
How am I supposed to feel superior to others if we reverse inequality?
 
And the message should be, what if we had just invested nearly a trillion into our own infrastucture instead of a lousy war.

Right, both sides will likely have a "yes, and" longer-term message once the videos of people falling off planes has been forgotten. Townie's right that it will likely fuel far left messaging the most - I'm guessing some of those photos of palettes of US Dollars we could barely keep track of will make an appearance when folks say we can't afford to fund our teachers for school supplies.

The right will probably double/triple down on American Nationalism/Exceptionalism by bemoaning the incompetence of other countries who need too much help. I'm sure they'll weave in a Biden weakness theme both for military leadership and loss of stature to the Chinese and Russians. There's already a "Trump would have done it stronger/tougher" message out today.
 
Not that Americans have the political attention or historical acumen to address this as a nation, but I'd prefer if we took this pivotal time to reflect on the extent to which we value military and national supremacy in the 21st Century. It feels to me like we can either address existential threats facing our world (climate, accelerating inequality) or we can renew our commitment to 19th Century empire-building and use the military as the frontier of that empire, but we can't do both. I think that's how this should be framed, because we never meaningfully ask whether or not it's cool to write a blank check to the Pentagon for $750BN every year. We just argue in the margins about one off budget reconciliation line items.

This is a good and thoughtful post.
 
Right, both sides will likely have a "yes, and" longer-term message once the videos of people falling off planes has been forgotten. Townie's right that it will likely fuel far left messaging the most - I'm guessing some of those photos of palettes of US Dollars we could barely keep track of will make an appearance when folks say we can't afford to fund our teachers for school supplies.

The right will probably double/triple down on American Nationalism/Exceptionalism by bemoaning the incompetence of other countries who need too much help. I'm sure they'll weave in a Biden weakness theme both for military leadership and loss of stature to the Chinese and Russians. There's already a "Trump would have done it stronger/tougher" message out today.

I don't know. The Taliban really moved on those Afghan cities like a bitch.
 
This was an failure of execution, and that fact should be scrutinized independent of Trump-Trump is not the standard.

That said, since Trump is the GOP hero who will inevitably be pointed to by the rest of the party as the leadership we are missing-how many Kurds did we rescue when we left them for Erdogan? That's about the number of allies in Afghanistan I expect Trump would have brought back here-especially given his stance on other Muslim refugees.
 
Not that Americans have the political attention or historical acumen to address this as a nation, but I'd prefer if we took this pivotal time to reflect on the extent to which we value military and national supremacy in the 21st Century. It feels to me like we can either address existential threats facing our world (climate, accelerating inequality) or we can renew our commitment to 19th Century empire-building and use the military as the frontier of that empire, but we can't do both. I think that's how this should be framed, because we never meaningfully ask whether or not it's cool to write a blank check to the Pentagon for $750BN every year. We just argue in the margins about one off budget reconciliation line items.


Good post. I'll add that part of this blank check is that we treat soldiers like gods and the military as an infallible institution. The US keeps screwing up in Vietnam, Afghanistan, or wherever we've been taking consistent Ls. But we don't blame the soldiers. We don't blame the generals. We don't blame the contractors. We don't blame the defense industry. We don't blame the military as whole. Nope. There's no accountability except in DC. We blame the President, maybe Congress, and some faceless bureaucrats who we can switch out every 2, 4, 6, 8 years. Don't ask questions. Keep increasing the budget. We'll just elect people who can do better next time.
 
Good post. I'll add that part of this blank check is that we treat soldiers like gods and the military as an infallible institution. The US keeps screwing up in Vietnam, Afghanistan, or wherever we've been taking consistent Ls. But we don't blame the soldiers. We don't blame the generals. We don't blame the contractors. We don't blame the defense industry. We don't blame the military as whole. Nope. There's no accountability except in DC. We blame the President, maybe Congress, and some faceless bureaucrats who we can switch out every 2, 4, 6, 8 years. Don't ask questions. Keep increasing the budget. We'll just elect people who can do better next time.

Sounds familiar.
 
2018- Trump released Taliban leader Barader and 5000 Taliban fighters from prison
2020- after his election loss Trump cut a deal with the Taliban. The Afghan govt was not included in any of the discussions
2020/21- Trump team refused to give security briefings to the Biden team during the transition

Two great background articles:

March 2021: Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973604904/trumps-deal-to-end-war-in-afghanistan-leaves-biden-with-a-terrible-situation
May 16 2021: Trump's War With His Generals
https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-trump-military-withdraw-afghanistan-5717012a-d55d-4819-a79f-805d5eb3c6e2.html
 
not really down with blaming the soldiers, but I'm cool with a criticism of the complex that drives enlistment.
 


 
Sounds familiar.

Well there's state building and there's state building. I'd argue we know more about and have been a lot more successful with the American Project at home in these borders than we have been elsewhere in the world, for that almighty taxpayer ROI. Maybe it's a grand failure on both fronts, but whom do we bear the greatest responsibility for in the long run? For the good we've been able to do in the last century, we still have a very long way to go. What moral superiority do we have to go nation building around the world with the world's largest prison population, with millions of homeless and jobless and hungry, with unending medical and student and financial debt? Just our good name and a W in the last big war? Even our own democratic designs intended to make Congress authorize wars; we're just going to forever fight proxy and shadow wars behind keyboards and with private contractors now as the last bastion of Empire, democracy or public will be damned. That all ended when we went to an all-volunteer army, the vested stake we had as a nation in our foreign military affairs.
 

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSS
 
Back
Top