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Opting Out

I'm too lazy to look it up, but Wake has to be the only school to have 2 1st-team all-conference performers turn pro early only not to get drafted. And between Dortch and Surratt, we got about 3 full seasons of production. Crazy.
 
Much of this discussion centers on Jamie Newman. Take a second to review the timeline leading up to his decision to opt-out. When Jamie decided to leave Wake, he was avoiding the possibility of losing the starting job to Hartman. He transferred to UGA (a higher-profile school in need of an experienced QB) at the end of December. Within 30 days UGA hires a new offensive coordinator and a new “offensive quality control coach" (to work with QB's). Spring practice is canceled in March, and JT Daniels transfers to UGA in May. Daniels is granted a waiver to play in 2020 and is nearing being cleared to play when Newman opts out on 9/2 (Daniels was cleared to play later in September and started the last four games of the season).

After all of the coaching changes at UGA, the cancellation of spring practice, and the addition of Daniels, Jamie was again facing stiff competition for the starting job which could derail his NFL dreams. Add to that the uncertainty of what a bout with COVID might do to him and it's not hard for me to imagine him thinking that opting out was the right move.

It didn't work out for him, but I don't judge any college athlete's decision to opt out in the middle of a pandemic.
 
WFU71 said:
Much of this discussion centers on Jamie Newman. Take a second to review the timeline leading up to his decision to opt-out. When Jamie decided to leave Wake, he was avoiding the possibility of losing the starting job to Hartman. He transferred to UGA (a higher-profile school in need of an experienced QB) at the end of December. Within 30 days UGA hires a new offensive coordinator and a new “offensive quality control coach" (to work with QB's). Spring practice is canceled in March, and JT Daniels transfers to UGA in May. Daniels is granted a waiver to play in 2020 and is nearing being cleared to play when Newman opts out on 9/2 (Daniels was cleared to play later in September and started the last four games of the season).

After all of the coaching changes at UGA, the cancellation of spring practice, and the addition of Daniels, Jamie was again facing stiff competition for the starting job which could derail his NFL dreams. Add to that the uncertainty of what a bout with COVID might do to him and it's not hard for me to imagine him thinking that opting out was the right move.

It didn't work out for him, but I don't judge any college athlete's decision to opt out in the middle of a pandemic.
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Probably a big reason teams avoided him as there is definitely an appearance that he is a guy avoiding competition and willing to sit out playing for sake of draft position. If I'm a GM I want a player that you can't drag off the field and loves competition.
 
I'm one who argued that Dortch was never going to make it due to his size. But last weekend, we saw 5'9, 165 lb Tutu Atwell go in the 2nd. Yes, Atwell is faster with a 4.32 40 to Dortch's 4.59. But I think the bigger contributor is Dortch's 20 college games to Atwell's 32. Dortch even put up similar stats in significantly less games (1800/2300 yds, 17/20 TDs), but the record of performance (and injury-free play) over 3 seasons is significant.
 
5-9/181 Rondale Moore went in the 2nd as well. Dortch’s problem wasn’t size. It’s speed.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Well I suppose it's football watching from the couch and the stands that allows us to spend millions of dollars on educations for guys to audition for the NFL for a couple of years. I bet our AD isn't thrilled with our inability to keep our best players on the roster.

This debate has been silly since it started last summer. In the end we have an increasing number of dudes who gave up becoming Wake Forest legends (for whatever that is worth) and will never play another meaningful game in their lives all for absolutely no benefit. The fact anyone is even entertaining the idea that Sage sat out because he was scared of COVID is hilarious and scary at the same time. He was either still hurt or felt Newman leaving hurt his chances of having a successful year and decided to sit out. I don't know whether playing this year would have helped him any, but if he believed it would have Sage would have played. To think otherwise is to ignore how pretty much every college student, not to mention student-athlete lives in reality (not in all the propaganda photos the University puts out of masked students).

Losing players like Dortch, Newman, Sage, Walker is brutal and is not helping us grow the program or put butts in stands. And contrary to "board wisdom" that does kind of matter.
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Some people on this thread are saying things like “wow, sucks they didn’t get drafted, I wonder how much the sitting out contributed.

Others, like the OP, are dragging them or rubbing their non drafted status in their faces with a strange personal sort of scorn for college kids that play football at your college who presumably we’d like to see do well in life.

My comment was for the second group
 
My guess was that Sage’s measurables didn’t look good and folks got scared off for that. Not really the sitting out. Hopefully he shows well in camp and I think he will.

Jamie was probably hurt by sitting out. Would have been better off starting at Wake again. Again hopefully he shows well in camp to stick around too.

I hope they both do well.
 
It'd be fascinating to see a documentary that covers all the whispers and advice one of these guys got from beginning to draft week. Definitely some confirmation bias fueling assumptions that not opting out would have improved anything draft-wise for either of them, but at the same time there's a lot of money to be made in pushing them to go early. So curious to know how aware they are of that versus input from family, friends and coaches. Also have to assume a fan's vision of being a great college player in the ACC and how awesome it is must be pretty far off base these days. Probably just more of a business from day 1 for guys hoping to go pro I'd guess...
 
I mean, I've been worried about Sage's pro prospects even during his great season as he never really got much separation at any point in his career

he relied on supreme ball catching techniques instead of route running or speed or athleticism, but that seems to be the hardest to carryover against more physically gifted DBs in the NFL

he's always reminded me some of JJ Acega-Whiteside who has done diddly-squat in the pros
 
Sage was elite when it came to catching contested balls and making catches in traffic. I thought he would get drafted as a potential red-zone weapon.
 
Whocares said:
I'm one who argued that Dortch was never going to make it due to his size. But last weekend, we saw 5'9, 165 lb Tutu Atwell go in the 2nd. Yes, Atwell is faster with a 4.32 40 to Dortch's 4.59. But I think the bigger contributor is Dortch's 20 college games to Atwell's 32. Dortch even put up similar stats in significantly less games (1800/2300 yds, 17/20 TDs), but the record of performance (and injury-free play) over 3 seasons is significant.
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4.32 to 4.59 : 5'7 to 6'3"
 
If you're 5'9" (or 5'7"), you better be fast

If you have 4.59 speed, you better be big

If you're returning kicks, you better not fumble
 
BlackjackMc said:
I wish the best for all three players.

I'm not surprised Newman or Surratt were not drafted. Sage had nine games that he flashed NFL potential prior to an injury. A year later he practiced for all star game where he had difficulty gaining separation, then was injured again. Pro day numbers were disappointing. Newman had 12 games where he flashed NFL potential. His final four games as a Deacon he did not perform well. He choose to transfer from the school that provided him an opportunity to a school with a higher football profile. He then choose not to play for them. His all star game performance was just OK.

Football players play football. Sage and Jamie didn't. What have you done for me lately? Nothing. This may seem harsh, but the NFL values tough, productive football players. Question marks don't get drafted.

edit for correction.
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That is exactly correct. NFL is a business and does not care what school you came from if they think you can play. Just look at how far the guy from Wisconsin Whitewater [Quinn Meinerz] jumped by going to the Senior Bowl and showing what he could do! Plus he had great workout tape. Northwestern OT Rashawn Slater opted out of playing at all during 2020 and he got picked 1st round by the Chargers I think. Local kid that went to VT as a WR got drafted on 2nd day by the Raiders as a linebacker and played DB for the Hokies. Surratt just can't get separation. Not sure if it mattered if he played or not. But I would have liked him to play last year!
 
The foundation of Wake Forest football is development. The benefits of that approach yield results when players are juniors and seniors. Dortch, Surratt and Newman shortchanged themselves by leaving early. They were not fully developed. If all three had stayed and played last year their individual resumes and team success would have been enhanced.
 
BlackjackMc said:
The foundation of Wake Forest football is development. The benefits of that approach yield results when players are juniors and seniors. Dortch, Surratt and Newman shortchanged themselves by leaving early. They were not fully developed. If all three had stayed and played last year their individual resumes and team success would have been enhanced.
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When you opt out (for whatever reason) and spend the season preparing for the draft, you take away the opportunity to impress scouts and answer the questions they have about the players game. This makes the pro-day and senior bowl that much more important. Even with all that time to prepare Jamie did not look impressive at either occasion. So what do NFL teams do? They err on the side of caution, when players with alot of question marks come out, teams are going to be cautious.

The same can be said for Sage, hurt during the senior bowl and didn't impress during the pro day. When you put so much emphasis on those two events after sitting out, they have to be impressive or the players will go undrafted as we saw this weekend.
 
TimmyClutch said:
When you opt out (for whatever reason) and spend the season preparing for the draft, you take away the opportunity to impress scouts and answer the questions they have about the players game. This makes the pro-day and senior bowl that much more important. Even with all that time to prepare Jamie did not look impressive at either occasion. So what do NFL teams do? They err on the side of caution, when players with alot of question marks come out, teams are going to be cautious.

The same can be said for Sage, hurt during the senior bowl and didn't impress during the pro day. When you put so much emphasis on those two events after sitting out, they have to be impressive or the players will go undrafted as we saw this weekend.
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the SDS article essentially says what I believe: for the elite guys, opting out had no real net effect. For everyone else, playing mattered.
 
Jamie had every chance to convert on the potential and hype that pundints were throwing his way. Ultimately, the guy doesn't throw over the middle well and he never showed that he had improved.
 
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